ditto
Tom, couldn't agree more! When i grew up reading comics in the 80's and 90's i loved the flawed scrappy and often underdog wolverine, but now he is NEVER the underdog and has lost his edge! I went from reading everything with ol' canuklehead in it to avoiding him at all cost (with the exception of Old Man Logan ironic that an alternate timeline wolvie is the only one out now that captures the true wolvie.

Posted by scott19438 on 2009-04-27 17:12:41
ditto to your ditto
I also grew away from Wolverine for the same reasons. He really was one of the great, gritty "street level" fighters until they amped his Healing Factor a hundredfold. Another think that always bothered me was that his joints and connecting tissue all seemed to be made of adamantium as well. They seemed to have recognized that in the Ultimates Universe though.

I believe they actually tried to tone down his HF/immortality a while back, but from what I've seen it seems to have been completely ignored. I miss the old scrappy-sometimes-underdog too which is why I'm enjoying Old Man Logan as well.

Posted by Hrungr on 2009-04-27 17:55:41
I had this EXACT conversation with the guy who works at my local comic shop last Wednesday.

Posted by chocodile on 2009-04-27 18:16:28
Super-Duper Super-Heroes?
Tom,

You're comments are amazingly coincidental. I just finished re-watching X-2 with Hugh Jackman. It's a great movie that I return to every so often.

I guess I am surprised by your candor re: Logan's abilities. I would expect comments like yours to be coming from a reader of Marvel, not from you. I am refreshed by your honesty. Also, your comments re: Superman give an indication that any commerical comic book properties will run into these "super-duper problems" eventually. Perhaps Marvel has some new ideas with new heroes that can actually die, and even bring the series to a close? Note: I am not referring to a phenomenon that has happened with characters whose sales are or have been low (i.e. Captain Marvel, Warlock, etc.). Instead, brand new characters who are vulnerable and have a definite story length in mind. 50 - 100 - 200 issues, and that's it! Now wouldn't that be revolutionary? Sounds just like something the House of Ideas would do!

Posted by Mon Morn Lunatic on 2009-04-27 18:23:53
I see your point, but Wolvies been indestructable for a long time. After he became so X-tremely popular (hah), I don't think anyone thought that he would die. Now, the question is, as a reader is there a difference between "could die" and "would die". At some point, you are just building false suspense into your story if you are threatening a character as popular as Wolverine with death.

On the flip side, we now live in an age defined by the image of Steve Rogers dieing on the steps of a courthouse. So, now I believe that any character can be brought to terms with mortality, if the right pitch comes along. I don't know. You make me think...

Posted by kyle-latino on 2009-04-27 18:28:52
Have to agree with Tom also. Back in the day, Wolvie was a favorite. But not so much now. I'm giving Jason Aaron's run a try, because he's always an entertaining writer, and I hope he can overcome this issue and bring some freshness to the character.

Posted by Rheged on 2009-04-27 22:07:45
Ego vs. Genre?
A good storyteller knows the limitation of his media, and has a comprehensive command of the genre. He works within the form, within the established characterizations, and does not see them as restrictions, but rather challenges. He understands that he is only telling part of the story.



Posted by jpfranklin on 2009-04-27 23:58:19
Applause!
I absolutely agree with this - Wolverine with a healing factor was a great character - he could be hurt, and potentially killed, but would come back from it, given time.

Wolverine with magic invulnerability, who *deliberately* stands next to Nitro and gets blown to pieces, has all the problems of Superman with invulnerability, and is a much less interesting character.

The very best thing Marvel could do with the character would be to tone down the healing factor, and introduce some tension into the character. There are far too many Wolverine stories which consist of him going into some dire circumstance, getting killled, then surprising everyone by coming back to life.

Posted by GS ManThing on 2009-04-28 03:23:08
you don't have to kill him, just stop doing crap and go back to what the character is.
( X-Factor rules. )

Posted by notapotatoe on 2009-04-28 06:00:55
I think there's more at stake than life itself. Wolverine can still lose a great deal of things: people he loves, his sanity, the forests, beer ...

An interesting point of view is also the fact that his immortality could also turn against him. What if he was captured and perpetually tortured? Forever getting painfully nearly 'killed' only to be reborn again? Wouldn't he WANT to be able to live again? And consider the pain one must feel knowing that you'll continue to live when all the people around you that you love will age and die, while you'll just live on....

So... in my viewpoint: YES there IS still a lot at stake, just find a good angle... That is what Millar managed to do so wonderfully in Old Man Logan...

Posted by Zigy on 2009-04-28 06:32:42
Less is MORE
Preaching to the choir. I think most of us who grew up loving Wolvie did so because here was a "hero" whose pain was palpable - he got hurt! He survived, but he got hurt - badly. I understand the story progression rules call for heavier and heavier benchmarks, but once in a while you need to turn the tide. Like when he lost his adamantium.

It's just no fun if you think well, he can take anything thrown at him. That's the boring thing about Superman after all. That's why Batman is DC's biggest franchise - don't lose sight of that fact.

And another thing - I understand you have to milk him for all he's worth the next month but after that plz cut down on the man's appearances. It's ridiculous to see him in just about every comic you make. You are turning him into a sidekick rather than a central character, because what kind of story can he have if he turns up everywhere all the time with everyone.

Less is More - but Marvel is the Mostest

Posted by Amberdragon on 2009-04-28 06:54:11
Sorta Agree
I definitely agree with that, in principle. However, now that Wolverine is like he is, instead of just toning him down or creating an alternate universe where he's not so invulnerable (i.e., Superman), it might be fun to try more stories that play on what he is. Like Zigy mentioned, put his invulnerability into a story as a weakness. It wouldn't work with Superman as well because he doesn't get hurt, but Wolverine can at least feel like he's dying, even if he's not.

I do also agree that he appears in too many books. You really can't sustain that kind of attention without sucking something out of the character.

Posted by PseudoSherlock on 2009-04-28 07:46:20
You know what I miss? The days when Spider-man was married.

It seems like, over the last decade ago, we’ve pumped the notion that our friendly neighborhood spider-man had a relationship to such a degree that he can always rely upon the bedrock of his relationship after he's been disintegrated physically and emotional by an arch villian. We’ve seen him buried alive, cloned, and still he just keeps on ticking. And that’s just in books I read this past weekend.

At a certain point, I have to wonder: where’s the drama anymore?

Remember when a character's marriage was an important element to character development? But if the guy can reconstitute a relationship out of existence, how is such a story anything other than a foregone conclusion that its place in the character's mythology worthless?

It’s the inevitability of time; the longer these characters stay in print, the greater and greater the challenges they face, and the more important their relationships become. This is a large part of why Superman became unrelatable after a certain point—because he was written to be able to do anything, and nothing could hurt him. Where’s the danger in that?

And sure, on a certain level we know Spider-man going to survive whatever it is we throw at him. The same is true of all of our heroes. The fun part, the thrilling part, is in seeing how they make it out the other side as an adult in a very real relationship.

To me, Spider-man wasn’t appealing simply because he was had the powers of a spider. It was as much because of his wit, character, relationships (with family and otherwise...family is important, isn't it?) his ability to take punishment and fight on, ignoring the pain. And he still does that, more often than not. But any sense of soul and purpose has been greatly diminished.

I much preferred Spider-man as a family man who had an edge over the people he fought in that his spirit and determination wouldn’t break, he had built-in sense of purpose, and he could soak up punishment that would kill or incapacitate an ordinary man. But “my” Spider-man wouldn’t stand a chance against someone like Galactus. These days, I don’t know if that’s true anymore because he can simply be given magically powers upon erasing a component of his life.

Just my opinion. Your mileage may vary. (YMMY is a euphemism for prostitution BTW, go to urban dictionary)

More later

Not Tom B

Posted by greatunraveling on 2009-04-28 10:08:24
Yeah, that's a valid assessment, but I think any writer worth his weight (and oh man, I've seen some heavy writers) would be able to craft a story that plays on that. I don't think that it's difficult to comprehend the incredible amount of loss that Wolverine has to go through as a result of his long life-cycle.

He's kind of like Marvel's Highlander. The first movie, not the 2nd one where they were aliens. The 2nd movie was like the "Wha... Huh?" of the Highlander movies.

Posted by causeitwasfunny on 2009-04-28 12:50:49
I thought...
I seem to remember a recent story were we given the explanation for his always living through everything. Every time he died he had to fight death and when he won he was given his life back. At the end of the story the impression was given that he won't be able to come back from the dead again. However since that story we have seen him do things that should have killed him. So....

Posted by cmcdjj37 on 2009-04-28 12:56:52
Didn't Guggenheim Address This?
Tom-- did you get a chance to read Marc Guggenheim's LOGAN DIES arc in Wolverine a while back? It was written seemingly to address this very thing, explaining the escalation of his healing factor in-universe and seemingly resetting it to a more reasonable, traditional level. What did you think of the story they did? Chaykin did some cool art.



Posted by Gentleman Jack on 2009-04-28 15:07:09
Add me to the crowd who couldn't agree more. I've gotten so sick of Wolverine appearing everywhere and going from an interesting character to just a charicature. I've gotten so sick of the character, I can't even bother to be excited about the upcoming movie.

Posted by motteditor on 2009-04-28 15:22:17
I agree with you Tom.

I'm kinda hoping that Jason Aaron's idea of mass producing Weapon X's just like himself will create a level playing field for Logan.

I also kind of miss the classic psychological edge that Sabretooth used to have over him and how he could push Wolvie's buttons to gain an upper hand.

He needs a new challenge where his invulnerability isn't a help.

He's too rounded of an individual.

Logan needs to go out with a bang, a-la-Barry Allen, and just give everyone a break to see what's missing then bring him back in a subtle, gradual, mysterious way which reboots his abilities whilst keeping his character.

Posted by crmapley1 on 2009-04-28 17:26:19
uhh.. hello???
Marc Guggenheim fixed this in his "Death of Wolverine" story! long story short, Wolverine fought the Angel of Death and should he reach the point of death again, he will die for good.

I thought editors were supposed to READ!!!

Posted by Maestro on 2009-04-28 19:57:31
Agreed!
Yeah. I came to the same conclusion when I saw someone shoot Wolverine right in the eye. The bullet rattled around in his brain. His brain should have been mush, all hope of restoring cognitive functions (like say... turning on his mutant powers) should have been gone. But no. He was out for a few minutes, stumbled around for a bit, but then got back up.

Also, surviving Nitro's nuke attack should NOT have happened.

Yeah, he's getting too tough. Where were you guys to tell the writers that 'No... that's ridiculous, think of something else.'? The writers who overblown Wolvie's abilities are just as guilty as the editors who let it past.

Also, Wolvie's appearances on multiple teams makes him a little out of touch to me too. Boy, he must really rack up the frequent flier miles. How does he manage it? Did he gain the power to rip space and time with his claws?

Posted by DRock1 on 2009-04-29 00:50:11
I don't have a problem with it. And ive been here a long time. This is what happens...but eventually...he will fall again. It's the cycle.

Posted by Kobe847 on 2009-04-29 04:13:36
I could easily be mistaken but I was under the impression that Mr. Brevoort was the number two at Marvel just below Joe Quesada. Wherever Tom ranks in the creative pecking order he is certainly up there. So, please Mr. Brevoort, use your influence and try to do something to knock Wolverine's healing factor down to a more reasonable level. As a reader it's not much fun to have a lead character who is virtually unkillable. Heck, I think you could make an argument that Wolverine is harder to kill than Superman!

Posted by rialb on 2009-04-29 17:50:08
And this blog is rather timely with the latest issue of Wolverine vs Hulk having just come out today.

...

Words fail me. Seriously.

Posted by Hrungr on 2009-04-29 23:50:57
Agree
Definitely agree, his healing factor is out of control. I am waiting for the book that reveals his teleportation power, because seriously, how is he on so many teams at once?

Posted by Arachkid on 2009-04-30 18:09:51
I'm reading the Ultimate Wolvie v. Hulk as lighthearted, affectionate parody of this phenomenon, not so much as ringing endorsement of the concept.

Taken as such, it's actually pretty good.

Posted by Muldrate on 2009-05-02 01:52:11
Just went to see "Wolverine-XMen:Origins"
Good lines in the movie. Pretty darn good plot. They WAY overdid Deadpool. Now he is like some freakshow from a horror movie. Blah! The Wolvie and Sabretooth plotline was great though. Really riveting. I liked a lot of the way the movie worked out. They just went to far with Deadpool... can't say it enough. I wish that the movie producers and execs at Marvel would actually take these sort of things to heart. THE BEST part of the movie was when Logan was staying with the old couple and the resulting drama around that. It actually got me worked up emotionally and inserted some humanity into the movie and wrenched at people's hearts.
The point I'll make here is this:
Screwing up major plotlines or major characters in the movies SUCKS.
Invincible characters are not nearly as endearing as super-powered characters with humanity and weakness.
Invincible characters should actually have minor roles and be understandable (like Galactus or Phoenix), not crappy horror movie-esque hodge-podge characters like the movie version of Deadpool. It would have been more than enough to have had a sword wielding super-reflex mutant with healing factor. The extra abilities were unneccesary and stupid.
MESSAGE TO THE EXECS AT MARVEL: Please insert more humanity, vulnerability, teamwork, suspense, and puzzles into your movies. (what I mean by puzzles is when something really ingenious is required to save the day and you actually have the audience wondering - How the heck are they going to get out of this one? and we aren't all just waiting for the "final fight", better yet... stop ending all the movies in a final fight and actually have a cliffhanger for once).
I'm done ranting... it is just too bad that we rarely see an action movie merged with the emotion of something like Shawshank Redemption, or The Color Purple.
Action plus emotion plus surprising twists ends in a movie that really does have some substance. *sigh* I'm done now. Good night.


Posted by greenthorn on 2009-05-03 02:29:14
Invulnerable heroes
It really isn't a lot of fun when the illusion of danger is gone. Both Hulk and Wolverine have had their power level and regeneration abilities amped up way too much.

Still, Tom you work with the creative teams. Surely they can take some steps to "nerf" things back down. I can think of several plot devices that have been used in the past and can certainly be used successfully again to achieve it. It's just up to the writers and editors to decide it's necessary to do.

There will almost certainly be controversy from fans in such a case but you guys have never shied away from controversy.

Posted by izzatrix on 2009-05-04 11:20:29
wolverine
i think they are doing a great job with the x-men movie i guess somepeople just don't have good taste in movie .

Posted by wolverina09 on 2009-05-12 01:24:27
I Agree
I don't take Wolverine too seriously anymore because he really can't (and won't) be killed. I know that he isn't in any real trouble. It works for someone like Deadpool because of his stories and such, but not for a serious Wolverine story.

Posted by DevynR. on 2009-05-15 13:31:38
I see him a little different
I see his regeneration as a curse to him. No matter what happens he still is doomed to live. He even must forget his past so he can live. His body can die but his soul is forever. Thats how I see him. Doomed to live and never fully calmed.

Posted by Balex27 on 2009-05-17 01:25:08
AGREED!
I agree with that, and I was thinking maybe you could do his orgin in comics based on the movie or not. People might buy the comics if they really think wolvrine is aswome so you might want to do something like that!

Posted by X-MEN10cyclops on 2009-06-24 08:46:47
I totally agree Tom
I think Wolverine is awesome Marvel character but it kinda sucks that he cant die. I mean even the man of steel died and he came back. When he did everyone was so excited that he came back. When wolverine gets killed we all know he is coming back. I think it should be spiced up a bit and let Wolfy have a foe as powerful as he is. Like when superman had to face Doomsday and was theoretically killed. All i am saying is that wolverine is a great hero now an even greater villain needs to face him.

Posted by Etrigan22 on 2009-08-10 21:13:26