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Civil War Memorial
2007-07-23 10:20:39

CIVIL WAR #1

As I mentioned on Friday, this week I'm planning on posting a series of documents from the making of CIVIL WAR, since people seem to be interested in that, and since the earlier series on HOUSE OF M was so well-received. So that's what you all have to look forward to in the days ahead.

To start with, here is the first document written by Mark Millar outlining his initial ideas for CIVIL WAR. This was done immediately after the creator conference at which the initial ideas for CIVIL WAR were thrown around, and you'll see Mark make reference to some of those conversations herein. Also, the version I've chosen to upload has notes incorporated into the body of the text from both Joe Quesada and myself, so you can get a sense as to our innediate eractions to the specifics of what Mark was proposing. And because I can't seem to do different colors in this blog, the Joe comments are labeled JQ, and my comments are labeled TB.

FAO Tom Brevoort, Editor

The Marvel Civil War
12-Part Maxi-Series

Mark Millar and Steve McNiven
Covers by Michael Turner

16th September 2005

INTRO:

Okay, this is the skeleton structure, but I need to see the bones before I can hang the meat. This is a tight breakdown of where I see this going, the characters I’d like to use and some suggestions about where we go from here as a company. Any comments would not only be welcome, but very much appreciated. If anything doesn’t smell right let me know because you guys know all the smaller characters much more than I do. I’d rather hear about an inconsistency or a repeated idea here than on a message-board ten months down the line. Be as picky as you like.

THE PLOT:

The issue opens, as discussed, with a small-scale superhero involved into a big action set-piece where all the jokes and the acrobatics get punctured by a stray bullet going right through a little kid. At the moment I’d like the hero to be Speedball and the kid in question, if such a kid exists, should be the son of Tony’s buddy Happy Hogan. [JQ - You sly BASTARD, that’s brilliant. You just made Tony’s point justified. BRILLIANT. Mark, what you do need in the opening is something that recaps the world and tells us of the building tensions so that this can have impact. Perhaps a panel by panel recap of events as a news cast only to pull out to see happy Hogan and his son at some sort of theme café in Time’s Square, perhaps the ESPN Café since they would have a thousands screens and possibly the news. They go for a cheerful father and son outing all the while you’re intercutting between them and a simple bankrobbery about to be foiled by Speedball. Cripes this kid is your Sue Dibny except his insignificance in Marvel continuity and his connection to Tony is that tiny hole in the dike that starts the flood. Did Tom B give you this, because no way you’re that smart.] [TB - It’s a nice thought, but it’s been pretty clearly established that Happy and Pepper don’t have any kids. They do feel like the right characters, though, so maybe there’s some way to do this. Having them have adopted a kid that we’re only going to kill a minute later seems crass. Would it work if we killed Happy himself, or maybe Pepper?.] Cap’s argument for civil liberties is very compelling, but I wanted to beef up Tony’s involvement on the other side and a superhero’s carelessness causing the death of his Godson seems like the perfect emotional turning point for him. The reader can absolutely empathize with why he wants his friends registered and licensed after this.

Anyway, the big opener is followed by a double page title spread and we move quickly into the reaction from the media and the politicians. This is the straw that broke the camel’s back and we quickly follow up all the recommendations about the registration act as the kid’s mother camps outside the White House asking for justice. [JQ - YES!] Villains are on a register and cops are on a register. They’re accountable for their deeds. Why should so-called good-guys be anonymous when they can do anything they like, etc, etc? The first issue, which is filled with set-pieces, ends with the surprising revelation that the heroes have 28 days to unmask and register themselves or else they’re going to be hunted down and imprisoned. [TB - I think I’d avoid saying “imprisoned” at this point. They’re going to be hunted down as criminals—that should be enough. More evokes concentration camps more than is good this early in the game, I think.] Public safety is suddenly a number one priority.

Second issue kicks off with a lot of these guys stepping up and unmasking. They aren’t being punished and in some ways life looks better for them now. They’re registered and, providing they work for the government, they’re receiving a salary and a pension plan. They’re no longer rogue vigilantes. They’re respectable. The only thing is that many of the heroes aren’t coming forward and SHIELD is becoming very concerned. Nick calls Cap to the heli-carrier and we get a great scene where we have one of those lovely big Marvel view-screens with all the heroes up there, most of whom haven’t registered yet. Nick wants Cap to assemble a team and track these guys down once the 28 days are up and Cap surprises everyone by saying no. The registration act, he insists, endangers superheroes and their families. That’s why they need to wear masks. Nick says the IDs will be kept secret, but Cap still refuses. Guns are raises, tense moment, but Cap takes everyone out with superhuman accuracy and leaps off a bridge within the heli-carrier, landing on a jet as it comes through. In a single movement, he cracks open the glass, ejects the pilot and nicks the jet, flying it out the other side of the heli-carrier. Cap is loose. The most dangerous man alive is now undercover and helping the superheroes who are refusing to come forward. This leaves Nick Fury in a weird spot because the superhero community is split right down the middle with nobody to lead the guys who back the registration. Step forward Tony Stark. It’s basically Iron Man Vs Captain America as the Marvel Civil War begins. [JQ - Mark, to give Cap’s argument weight, I say that one of the heroes that registered has his family killed by a villain. This way when Fury tells Cap it’s all going to be confidential, Cap calls him on it, anything can be leaked.] [TB - I agree. My feeling when I got to this part of the outline was that there didn’t seem to be enough of a reason for Cap to suddenly go rogue otherwise.]

Issue Three is where they start to assemble their own teams. Tony is putting his guys together and their objective is very simple. They want to bring in all the unlicensed super-people, give them a chance to register and, if they insist they’re staying rogue, they’re getting locked up in a new maximum-security prison beside Speedball. [TB - What’s the deal with Speedball? Was he arrested, or did he turn himself in? Either way, it’s a bit hypocritical for Tony & Co to condemn him for innocents getting caught in the crossfire when it’s happened to Iron man multiple times. Something to think about and finesse—each character can have a slightly different shading on the events.] The other side, led by Cap, have formed a new team and they’re all wearing new stealth costumes (resigns of their original costumes that can’t be picked up by satellite or radar) and their objective is equally simple; they want to perform their superhero duties without being captured by the first time. They’re a secret society. An underground movement. And they’re being led by Captain America which means that nobody can touch them. The teams have broken down with Tony having Spidey [TB - Does Spidey unmask to the government? If not, how is he part of Tony’s guys?] , Reed Richards and all the guys we discussed on their side. Dr Strange, Black Panther and the X-Men are staying neutral, but Wolverine comes over to help because it’s the right thing to do and both Ben Grimm and Sue Storm come over with Namor to Cap’s side. [JQ - According to JMS, Ben will actually leave the country as a conscientious observer. He can’t be brought to fight his family so he will be in France for a few issues. This does give you that great moment in Planet Hulk when Ben comes back home because now it’s gonna be a fun fight and we get some great Thing/Hulk pummelling. How great will it be when he can yell “it’s clobberin’ time,” in French.] I like the idea of some of the heroes publicly known (like Sue) having to adopt new secret identities (like they did in Byrne’s FF) just so nobody can find them. [TB - That’s a pretty cool thought.] All this stuff is pure gravy and will be a lot of fun to write.

The first big set-piece between the two teams is when Cap’s guys (who still want to perform their superhero duties) attend what looks like a big accident. But when they get there what appears to be innocent people burning in a chemical plant blaze is actually black ops guys and the whole thing is a Stark-inspired trap where the other half of the super-community are lying in wait, Cap’s crew get their asses kicked and half of them are hauled off to this big super-prison which gets a little more packed every day.

The whole situation is getting nuts and there’s a clear war now going on between the superheroes, both equally convinced that they’re doing the right thing. It all builds up to a big climax at the end of the fourth issue as Tony wakes up in bed to find Cap sitting on his chest and warning him to call off the dogs. He has to release these super-people from prison or Cap will have to take action. This is a last moment of sanity before all hell breaks loose in issue five and, since Tony believes with all his heart that they need licenses, he tells Cap to go fuck himself. Thus, the war is on and both sides are playing for keeps.

Issue five is our boldest set-piece so far as we see the super-secret place where the super-people are being banged up. It’s a portal into the Negative Zone which is being used up like real-estate and home to dozens of heroes in sci-fi cells unlike anything we’ve ever seen before. [TB - We should probably build on the prison we established in the Negative Zone in the FF: FOES limited series. If nothing else, it ties everything back to stuff we already have in place, and makes it all seem like a big overarching plan.] This issue is a rollercoaster fight where Cap marshals his troops and does the most audacious raid on this place (all our guys wearing space-suits) and managing to free the bulk of them. There’s been talk of some machinery recovered from Latveria after the Secret War and the SHIELD techies are building a half-finished device Doctor Doom was working on which turns super-people into ordinary human beings. The plan is to humanize each and every one of these guys banged up in here, but Cap’s raid means this is impossible and Tony is humiliated as Cap just completely outclasses him in military strategy. Issue five ends with him being berated by congress and they’re telling him he’s out on his ass, etc, before Tony pulls the ultimate rabbit-from-a-hat and says he has something he KNOWS can defeat these guys. Cut to literally hundreds of super-villains all wired up with Stark Tech. These are the bad guys who have been fighting the heroes for years and they outnumber and outclass each of these good guys out there. Spidey is very uncomfortable about this, but Stark has designed tracking devices and so on to keep the guys in check. They’re being watched at all times and anyone even THINKING about stepping out of line just gets zapped. The game is raised to a whole new level.

Issue six kicks off the action with the villains making short work of some of the heroes, bringing them in and banging them up. We have one scene in particular where a gang of baddies capture one of the heroes, kick the crap out of him and prepare to unmask him before a bullet tears through one of their heads. The others look around before they’re all gunned down too. Huge shadow of a surprise ally picks up the hero and takes him back to base where we get a big, full-page picture of The Punisher standing here with the fallen hero in his arms [JQ - How about over his shoulder in the fireman’s carry or in the way Frank would carry a wounded Viet Nam vet, whith his gun still poised against his shoulder.]. The moment they enlisted the crooks, the moment The Punisher couldn’t stay neutral. Uncomfortable alliance with Cap and crew, but it works well and we get loads of high quality action leading up to a big smack-down between Cap and Punisher. [TB -Another thing to keep in mind: there may be characters who are in neither Cap or Tony’s camps—guys who either choose to go it alone, or who play each side against the other. Just a thought.] Joe and I came up with this great scene where some of the baddies try to come over and volunteer to come over, but both end up getting their heads blown off by The Punisher. Cap gets nuts and we get a big smack-down, but the thing that excited us is that Cap would pretty much be the guy Frank Castle always wanted to be. The only difference is that Cap was born in a great war and Frank was born in a failure of a war and so this fight, this slug-fest between them has Punisher just taking it and not raising a hand throughout, spitting out teeth at the end and asking Cap if that’s the best he can do. [JQ - When you really look at these two characters standing side by side, they really are our Batman and Superman Cap’s almost an alien being, Christ figure while Frank is the man without powers who lost his family and what they share is two wars that couldn’t be more different.]

Cut to a disturbing moment where a friend of Speedball lands himself in big trouble. The first issue had Speedball on the phone to a friend who was supposed to have been involved in a team-up that fateful night. But now he’s scared and wanting credibility, which is why he passed his name and address to the SRA people and hoped for a whole new career. But his name got out there and an old villain found out and now his little kid has been snatched on the way home from school. Everything superheroes wear a mask for is articulated here as a threat is sent out and this little superhero is told that, unless he kills an innocent, his kid is getting butchered and delivered home in pieces.

Such a series threat at the very heart of the whole argument, the reason they even wear these masks, takes the argument to a whole new level and Spidey, despite liking Stark, jumps sides as they all get out there and do what they can to find this kid. [TB -I would think that Tony would as well—just because he believes that registering heroes is the right thing to do doesn’t mean he wants to see a little kid get killed. So this could seem to be a unifying moment that really isn’t.] However, they’re getting nowhere and the deadline is almost up and it’s only when this guy blows his own brains out (thus killing an innocent) that the kid is released. Horrible, depressing end to the arc within the story, but it’s a wake-up call to many of them as they solidify their positions. The kid is safe, but nothing can ever be the same again. The whole thing erupts into the biggest battle of the series so far as the battle-lines are drawn and we have an amazing confrontation between the two sides as they beat the shit out of each other in the heart of New York City. This is just classic Marvel Hero Versus Marvel Hero stuff and a poignant moment where Cap, as he’s pummelling Iron Man, starts getting trash thrown at him. The people are behind the other side. They recognize the more sensible argument and it’s only at that precise moment that Cap realizes he no longer has the faith of the people. [TB -Cool.] And he’s horrified. He represents America and yet now finds himself representing an eccentric elite who dress up in costumes and get involved in violent situations. It’s heartbreaking for him as he rallies his troops and tells them all to fall back, leaving the city to Tony’s team and disappearing underground forever. He realizes his responsibility now and it’s quite simple; they either unmask or they take these masks off forever. That’s the decision at the end of the issue. Unmask or disappear. [TB - Again, cool.]

The next issue opens with the new status quo as Tony and his guys are the only game in town. Everyone is legal and some of Cap’s guys have even come over to join in. Everyone has a license and Tony’s applying his brilliant mind to the superhuman situation in a way we’ve never seen before. This is a wonderful chance for us to create new heroes and teams, redefining all the classics as Tony essentially updates the Marvel Universe. He creates a new team called The Champions for LA and these guys could get their own book, creates some guys for the south, Midwest and for Illinois. Superhero problems erupt everywhere and he stretches his forces out from New York, massively increasing the budget he developed in his trial run of Avengers back in the Stan and Jack days. We also have some great set-pieces like Iron Man, Giant Man and so on capturing and taking down guys like the Ghost Rider. This should be shameless; every trick in the book. It should be a fan-boy orgasm and we should love every minute of it as the new Captain Marvel, etc, get a gold standard entry into a revitalized Marvel Universe.

Cut from here to all the super-people who went undercover living their normal lives. Cap, to our surprise, is enjoying normal life more than he expected. [TB -I don’t quite buy this. I don’t think Cap would either surrender or retire—especially if that’s going to be the payoff at the end of the series. ]We get all the stuff we talked about where Steve Rogers hasn’t really had a chance to live since he first got the super-soldier serum and we get him here as a blue collar guy just doing his own thing and rediscovering who he really is. Ben Grimm has moved to Paris with Alicia and she’s doing great on the art-house circuit out there with her sculptures. But the big, dramatic thing is the Doctor Doom weapon that’s being used as a kind of superhero electric chair. This is being used on Speedball, the hero who kicked this whole thing off, and we see him stripped of his superpowers on live TV and returned to society. It should be an awesome moment and one the heroes watch with a certain amount of fear.

The big finale, the last three or four issues, comes on the back of Thor’s return. Like I said, every trick in the book has been established here and the appearance of the mysterious new Thor should set pulses racing, especially as we only get hints to his amazing back-story. He can’t believe what’s happened to the superheroes and wonders what would have happened had he been around. He was always the third point in the Tony-Cap relationship and brought a real balance to the team between the futurist and the traditionalist. But it all comes to a head as the cliff-hanger from Planet Hulk neatly cuts into our own series. We just have to be careful here because we’re hoping for 300K on this thing and Hulk will probably do around 100K so we really have to seem quite self-contained. Another thing I’d like to suggest is completely rethinking the alien attacks thing discussed at the summit. We’ve seen aliens attack many times and varied types of aliens will only be confusing and a turn-off for the end of a big superhero series. For a summer event, the kids want Marvel characters and the conclusion to this should be the biggest Marvel character of all. I’d really like to see the Hulk attack Earth and bring with him small, five foot versions of the Hulk called Hulk Babies who are just as powerful and dangerous, but the spawn of the Hulk after he’s bedded a hundred thousand alien chicks. They should all look the same and do enormous amounts of damage when they show up with Dad. This keeps it simple, looks more visually interesting and stops us falling into Star Trek or whatever. It also seems more like a superhero comic than a sci-fi thing and I think the fans would be more into it.

[JQ - Mark, I agree and disagree. I’m not crazy about the amoeba style aliens and I think we need to keep this clean and simple. I do believe that the sight of a giant Hulk in the middle of a double page spread wearing Roman Gladiator or Centurion armour surrounded by a legion of weird aliens in similar armour that are bigger than the Hulk is a pretty moment! I would avoid making the threat too complex, keep it to simple aliens that are designed to kick our heroes asses. The fan boy moments come in watching how our heroes get back together. SOME SPECIFIC COMMENTS ABOUT UPCOMING ELEMENTS OF WORLD WAR HULK DELETED HERE

So, basically, I see no problem with a simple alien invasion, remember, what makes this one cool is that it has the Hulk at its front line, leading it. It’s just the incident that unites the heroes. It’s that unification that needs to make the fanmen pee themselves.

By the way, I would save Captain Marvel for the Hulk War. We could use him on one of two ways. Most likely word will leak that Thor will be making his appearance in MCW, and we surprise people with the last page being a very Christ like Captain Marvel. Then an issue later Thor appears. Or we can have Thor appear first and then no one will expect Captain marvel in the following issue.]

[TB - Let me say the obvious thing here: The Hulk War doesn’t belong in this story, and it’s only our own greed that keeps trying to force it in. I do think that the Hulk should play a role in this story, but right now this is the point where everything disintegrates into chaos, into two big summer crossover stories smooshed together. It’s not going to be accessable, it’s not even going to make sense, and I don’t think we should do it. Let PLANET HULK be PLANET HULK, and let CIVIL WAR be CIVIL WAR. Let’s not chase the DC dollar on this. It’s a sucker’s bet.]

Anyway, as discussed, the new heroes like The Champions, the New Avengers, Captain Marvel, etc, go up against Hulk and the Hulk babies and much ass is kicked. Unfortunately, it’s the ass off the good guys and in true Marvel style we learn that they need to all fight together to beat the baddies. Thus, a spine-tingling Avengers Assemble moment as Cap reappears and marshals all the undercover heroes to team up with the new guys and we get the biggest, most kick-ass fight ever as the threat is contained in the last couple of issues. But it doesn’t end here. The senator behind the superhero registration gets him hands on the Doom tech and prepares to eliminate every superpower in the world. [TB - Boy, a Senator feels like too small a fish for this role. Can we make him more important or resonant somehow? Is there an existing Senator we can use that’d make sense?] It’s right here we have Cap dropped into the situation as he heroically defends his fellow heroes, climbing inside and closing the whole thing down. Huge explosion and smoke everywhere followed by the awe on the faces of the heroes he saved as we see skinny Steve Rogers lying here stripped of his powers.

It would be too crass to just end the civil war with the situation being resolved by an external threat. And that’s where the little kidnapped kid storyline kicks in again. Tony tells them that this changes nothing. That the superheroes still need a license, etc, but this little kid appears and explains how his Daddy died thanks to the act and how he’s lost more than even Tony lost. This counter-balances the dead kid in the first issue and has Tony and tears and everyone in tears and the whole matter gets resolved. [TB -How do we resolve it? Where do the pieces end up at the end? And if this conflict gets as personal as it really needs to along the way, it seems like a cheat to just put everything back the way it started.]

Cut to the epilogues and we basically set up the new Marvel Universe here with Bucky taking over as the new Cap, [TB -I’m not convinced that Bucky is the right person for this role yet. Another option might be for the new Cap to be Hawkeye, Clint Barton, now back fromt eh dead. Bendis was talking about bringing him back in a new guise, so maybe this is the way to do that]. a new status quo for Tony (which he needs), new teams set up across America, plus the emergence of this new Thor. All the core characters get a nice revamp spinning off into their own books before we close the whole thing with Nick Fury talking to the 97lb Steve Rogers in the closing pages. All the talk of secret identities and double-lives draws to a close, neatly tying everything up as he admits that, despite everything, he’s kind of excited to get his life back again. He’s heading out to discover America and rediscover himself and Nick smiles. Steve hopes he isn’t being selfish and Nick says no way. “One Hell of a tour of duty you just had, soldier”, he tells Steve and Steve just smiles. They salute and Steve Rogers, skinny as a rake, walks off into the sunset like all the best heroes should.

THE UPSHOT:

Winter Soldier as Cap for a year before Steve gets the call and gets revitalized for the movie. Thor, Iron Man, Hulk, etc, all get a huge shot in the arm and we create an important moment in Marvel history where, for twelve glorious issues, the heroes do what Stan and Jack made them do best: Kick the living crap out of one another.

End.

[JQ - Mark, great stuff. We should sit and talk with our editors about what characters could use a lift. Arana, Runaways and Captain Marvel being just a few.

I love using this as a platform for launching teams like The Champions, but in order for it to make sense we have to decided what makes these teams different other than geography and name. This will make your selection of members have more sense.]

[TB -The biggest problem, as I see it, is that this storyline really should hijack just about every single title we’re publishing for the duration, and it’s not going to be able to (nor should it, given the sheer number of books we’d be talking about.)

Also, as Jeph said, we can’t really have a Civil War without some genuine casualties, so we’d better start thinking about that seriously—and who we’d want to kill off or mutilate in this thing. If Speedball is the best we’ve got, it’s time to pack it in.]

More later.

Tom B

Part 2: Civil War Record
Part 3: Civil War Mobilization

DC and the never ending event
The comment about chasing the DC dollar sounds like it should be a mean jab, but it's just too accurate. They have been stringing things together a little too much lately.

Posted by CodeGuy on 2007-07-16 17:06:29

I'm glad you mentioned the Negative Zone prison in this memo, but unless I missed it,, how did it end up not getting touched upon in any of the actual comics? Reed even brings in the Mad Thinker to go over his plans, when it was the Mad Thinker who was behind Reed building the Negative Zone prison in Foes in the first place!! It's not really something to be nitpicky over, but it just seemed weird to have portions of the same story published less than two years apart.

Anyways, thanks for sharing the planning document. It's certainly been interesting reading.

Posted by carpbunny on 2007-07-16 17:48:43

I think I'll have to pore over all this later; I've skimmed through it and there's some interesting details. The one that stands out most clearly is the "unmask and register or unmask forever". This isn't something we really saw extensively in the series - in fact, the impression I got was that the superhero's identity would be known only by SHIELD, which meant that to me, Spidey's public unmasking had no rationale whatsoever (as SHIELD already knew who he was!). I was actually thinking earlier today about whether it might have been better to unmask Spidey at the end of the series as opposed to the beginning; with Tony Stark publicly putting Peter Parker on the top of America's most wanted list and declaring that he is officially Spider-Man. From my point of view, that would have intertwined with the series a lot better, it would have given the conclusion a big bang and it would have provided a simple point for the Spider-Man titles to jump off from and scoop up (although having said that, with the delays as they ended up being it's perhaps best it happened the way it did). I wonder what Tom thinks about this; was Civil War #2 the right time to unmask Spider-Man? It certainly wasn't picked up in the subsequent issues of that series.

Posted by Fetsur on 2007-07-16 18:27:22

Good Stuff
Thanks for another intriguing blog, Tom. There are some beats here (Steve depowered, the Doom tech) that I like better than some of the events finally settled on. One of the interesting things to me is the time spent on making Cap's motivation beliveable. I guess with the idea of Tony's motivation being wrapped in a godson who never materialized, his motivations seemed clear. In hindsight, Tony's side (although clearly right in most ways) came off as simply oppresive. I'm looking forward to reading how the plan changed over time. Some of that is clearly in the separation between Civil Way and World War Hulk, but there are some changes that aren't that obviously explained.

Posted by Elder5 on 2007-07-16 18:57:40

Civil War proposal
Thanks for sharing this Tom (it took longer to read than the bloomin' comic!). It's great to see that there are editors out there making decent suggestions, and I'm impressed you lot didn't squeeze Planet Hulk in there. I'm so pleased we didn't get the Hulk Babies - Hulk Dogs, now those would be great.

I have to say, I prefer the skinny Steve ending to what we got post-CW, the apparent death of Cap. That line from Nick Fury was great, and the whole scene would have been far more of a 'moment' than the actual final page.

Posted by Volthoom on 2007-07-16 19:12:25

As others have already said, thanks for sharing this. Fascinating stuff.

I have to say, I like the outline here more than I liked the real thing (even in this scenario, it's easier to bring Speedball back than what some writer is eventually faced with now). I can understand the concerns about tying in what-we-now-call World War Hulk, but I also think it could have worked well. That scenario is what did bring all the heroes back together, something we never got in what was published. Perhaps that was intentional -- obviously the aim of CW was to set back the status quo of the MU -- but I think it's something a bit overlooked now. We have no explanation of why some of the anti-reg heroes are willing to work with the pro-reggers after they viciously murdered Bill Foster and threw them in a life-sucking extradimensional prison while allowing mass murderers like Bullseye and Co. to walk around.

Posted by motteditor on 2007-07-16 21:18:35

in memoriam
I'd like to know if I'm the only one wishing to see Matt Murdock becoming the new Cap America...

Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-07-17 06:14:22

Civil War Memorial
Man, it was interesting how you solved those problems, Tom, of Tony's Godson not being a part of the story, (Happy getting killed later on). How Cap never explained his side, to Nick, but a fill-in Maria Hill. How Tony wasn't humiliated by Cap, and the underground didn't go stealth.

So many problems, to intermesh with other books, unmask SM, get the villians from the TBolts status, and taking a lot of heros to 42, to just a few heros. And making SM the hero rescued by Punisher, to ending it with Cap's surrender, and not WWH.

I can say, I'm not convinced of Tony's strong Pro- SRA stance, as the books turned out, but not having him defeated by Cap, helped. The biggest change was Stamford - the trigger event. How did that come about? And that little previso by Loeb about deaths in the CW must have meant changes to the way the story panned out. Especially Frontline and FF.

Posted by jackolover on 2007-07-17 06:30:37

Makes me a little sad...
I appreciate the honesty in presenting this unexpurgated, but... reading it, it all feels so uncreative. Like the whole thing was three guys sitting around saying "Hey this would be cool" and then taking their various cool ideas and smushing them together. I'd be interested to see the way a crossover like Operation Galactic Storm was built, since that felt more organic... seemed more like they started off with a central story idea and then fit the various characters and titles into that. It came across, at least to me, as more organic and cohesive.

Posted by CylverSaber on 2007-07-17 10:32:13

thoughts
Tom,
The most incisive comment on the whole thing was your decision to cleanly separate CW from WWH. I took the comment about "chasing the DC dollar" not as a slap at DC, but rather focusing on keeping megabucks from events (stealing DC customers) coming in rather than pace out quality stories.

Interesting read. Thanks for putting this up. I guess we will see how the 12 ish CW run became the 7 ish we know. Personally, I am glad it was 7 issues. I was pretty ready for it to end when it did, and we still haven't really come to a new status quo. Everything is still unsettled.

I just read CW (and just CW) through again. It is interesting to see that in CW alone, the Pro-reg is justified so much more than the anti-reg side. It was like Millar was working his angle, and all the writers of the other titles were giving their "yeah, buts..."

At the end of the day, 97-pound Steve was a safe move. Killing Cap was the gutsiest move there was. Kudos to Tom and to Ed Brubaker for seeing it and moving on it.

Posted by bigdaddyhub2 on 2007-07-17 11:46:38

weird
...weird to read such a honest document. Comments about chasing dollars and wanting 300K seem a little tasteless. The comments about Cap coming back in a year to replace WS suggests that this the time frame we are looking at (which I suppose is no surprise really given the length of the current arc). The Hulk does seem a bit silly and to be honest I'm actually pleasantly surprised it didn't happen. There were a few other little comments that jarred slightly but I'd rather you DID post things like this didn't.

Posted by bomaya on 2007-07-17 12:07:34

This is great!
Thanks so much for sharing this with us! This insight to the process is amazing.

There's lots to digest here. I like lots of Millar's original concepts - certain parts seem more interesting than what actually occurred. Do you ever worry about "over-editing" a pitch?

That said, it seems there were a few problems with the pitch that you mentioned (Cap "giving up") that were the same complaints fans had with this book. While hindsight is 20/20, do you have to bite your tongue to keep from saying "I told you so"?

The other interesting thing to me is that most people view World War Hulk as being "tacked on" to Civil War, when it seems that WWH was in the planning a lot longer than Civil War.

And do all writers talk about sales figures in their pitches?

Sorry about all the questions, I'm just curious by nature.

Thanks so much again! I love these blogs!

Posted by gtramountanas on 2007-07-17 12:17:41

this was better...
i think this was a better story for the cibil war that was printed... it disapointed me a lot and marvel comics left me with a bad taste with civil war... and it apears that isnt going to end any time sooner with wwh and the x-men Xovers...they criticize DC for doing never ending millestones but marvel its doing the same so...try to give our money a rest and do good comics again.

Posted by incubo on 2007-07-17 14:20:11

Not tasteless
"Comments about chasing dollars and wanting 300K seem a little tasteless."

It's not tasteless, it's their job. Whether this is a work of art or not, they still have to pay the bills.

Think of it this way: if they don't try to make big money on some projects, then they won't ever have money to attempt lower end, risky projects like Ant Man and Spider-Girl.

"Tasteless" would be if they not only considered dollars, but held them up as more important than every other factor. I think this document shows that they definitely considered more than just dollars.

Posted by CodeGuy on 2007-07-17 15:00:47

incubo
So which do you want? A 12 issue crossover that immediately intersected with another big event or a 7 issue event that gave us a few months off to set the stage for a big event? You said you wished CW had been done as written but then you complain that there is too much big stuff going on.

Posted by bigdaddyhub2 on 2007-07-17 15:10:39

But when did Thor become a clone?

Posted by IanZL on 2007-07-17 17:24:38

Fascinating
Thanks Tom for putting this up.

As some other posters have said, there are many elements of the pitch that appear to be more interesting than what ended-up in the finished CW.

Definitely the right decision to split WWH from CW, although if the Hulk had been copulating with thousands of Alien chicks, Planet Hulk would have ended up a mature readers title. :-)

Still, I prefer the original ending to the final version. For me, it seemed more logical and dramatic. Ho hum...

Fascinating insight into the creative process nevertheless.

Posted by Simch Harna on 2007-07-17 18:01:06

Thanks
There were one or two beats in here that I liked, but for the most part the series that was published was much better than this would have been, in my opinion. Some of the ideas here seemed to be "reaching", and not as grounded as we got in the published version. This was awesome to see, thanks for posting it!

Posted by spiderseppy on 2007-07-17 18:38:02

COOL! ABSOULUTELY AWSOME DUDE!
YOU ARE SUCH A NICE GUY, DUDE!

Posted by Spiderjason on 2007-07-18 04:27:17

"I'm glad you mentioned the Negative Zone prison in this memo, but unless I missed it,, how did it end up not getting touched upon in any of the actual comics? Reed even brings in the Mad Thinker to go over his plans, when it was the Mad Thinker who was behind Reed building the Negative Zone prison in Foes in the first place!! It's not really something to be nitpicky over, but it just seemed weird to have portions of the same story published less than two years apart."

I believe the mad Thinker only went over Reed's calculations about the super-human population growth, not the prison.

Posted by sononsj on 2007-07-18 20:33:33

hi

Posted by james555 on 2007-07-18 22:03:59

CW memorial
I think Steve's gettin depowered is a better direction than his "death", and the return of the real Thor, in this story, would be intriguing, as he shows up in the middle of a huge riff amongst his ol' comrades.

Oh, well...

Posted by labah2merah on 2007-07-19 03:50:33

better?
How is Cap getting depowered better than his death? Sre, we all believe that he'll be back some day, but at least now we can HOPE that Marvel has the cojones to let him stay gone...

Posted by yogore on 2007-07-19 22:10:01

HULK BABIES!!!
That is the freaking hilarious.

Posted by monsterZERO on 2007-07-22 12:47:41

Civil War- Index
I haven't read comics for a while and I wanted to
read the Civil War series.
Can anyone give me an index of what comics to read for the
main story?

Posted by skywalkers2002 on 2007-09-18 12:16:41

wtf?
does any1 wanna know y cap is going to have a gun? because i do and i think its gay!

Posted by gavzler on 2007-10-23 16:53:31

y would they ruin cap?
i wanna know who thought of killing cap because that ruins the avengers, his series and civil war because all i see is wolverine going around looking for the one who killed cap?

Posted by gavzler on 2007-10-23 16:56:53

Thor is the Anwer
I am still eager to have the full confentation of the events of civil war through the eyes of the thunder god. Marvel has repeatedly shown the deep respect and admiration odinson has for steve rodgers. Thor calls upon Cap to his aid during the twilight of gods in the pages of the ragnarok and considers him the most trust worthy mortal on earth. I hope he won't just "let it go"
Also what's the deal with Namor!?! Tony gives him the body of Steve Rodgers and swears to protect it. Then In the last illuminati book He asked if the body bag contained Steve! Why is no one talking bout this!!!

Posted by KeystoneCon30 on 2008-01-01 17:42:46

You can tell that Mark Millar got a little carried away there, if not for a moment. I've wanted to read this for a while, and I'm glad i got to it. Like I always say editors are very important to the stories.

HULK BABIES. LMAO.

Posted by doeswhateveraspidercan666 on 2008-07-29 01:28:27

Array

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