Marvel.com Blogs - Blah Blah Blog by Tom Brevoort

web marvel.com

BLOGS HOME|COMIC BLOGS|VIDEO GAME BLOGS|OTHER BLOGS|MARVEL NEWS

Tuesday, 9:44
2007-07-20 13:52:20

Plan to get the books on time, based on the F

I'll probably only have time for one blog posting today, as our Editorial Retreat starts this afternoon. So let's make it in response to a post on the thread about continuity, since everybody seemed interested in that.

Here's the post in question:

>Accountability
So your answer to not being able to stick to continuity was because you had no idea when Iron Man would be wrapped up(ie when the issues would be completed) or when Secret War #5 would be completed. Here is a novel idea, HOW ABOUT MAKING WRITERS AND AUTHORS STICK TO DEADLINES???

Seriously, with the sheer number of titles that get delayed by Marvel it is no mystery why continuity is difficult to keep up with. How about making writers and artists accountable for their actions? There is no reason there should have been such a delay between issue 4 and 5 of Secret War. I have heard the official reason for it and I can tell you the art was no where near good enough to justify it. And that is just one of many titles that have been extremely delayed in recent years including Spider-man/Black Cat, Ultimates, etc.

Instead of making a blog post and essentially calling readers nit picky for caring about continuity and commenting on the restrictions of a dead man who cannot defend his actions, how about you put the blame where it is due? And that is with tardy writers, artists, and the editors who fail to enforce deadlines.

Posted by thatsmystapler on 2006-06-25 04:04:12>

Stapler, I think you're taking a situation that's much more complex than you seem to want it to be, and reacting to it in a very blunt manner. Let's go through this one step at a time.

I think there's a very big difference between what fans like yourself are saying, and what you actually mean. You say, "HOW ABOUT MAKING WRITERS AND AUTHORS STICK TO DEADLINES??? " To which I would say that, in most cases, we do. But let's take the flipside for a second: if a given creator can't get a book done in thirty days, what would you have us do? Because all of the evidence I have indicates that, while people say that they want he books more frequently, what they really want is the books more frequently by the same creators, and at the same level of quality. And that's just not going to happen in most cases. And in those cases where it's not possible, it's in the best interests of the project long term to hold the line, rather than rushing in a fill-in or bringing in half-a-dozen pencilers to hack out your crossover.

You're entitled to feel however you felt about SECRET WAR as a project. But I'd argue that, while it may not have worked for you, the sales of both the individual issues and the continuing sales on the hardcover indicate that the artwork was worth waiting for, at least as far as the majority of the audience is concerned. The same thing is clearly true of THE ULTIMATES. And the same thing is clearly true of IRON MAN. All during the time the Warren and Adi run was being delayed, all I heard was "why can't you get a guy who'll deliver the book monthly?" And now that Patrick Zircher is doing just that, all I hear is, "Well, you know, this artwork really isn't a patch on what Adi Granov does." So each instance is a choice. And we clearly all take responsibility for making that choice to hold the line. You may not like the choice we made, but there it is.

(It should be noted that late shipping is not a Marvel-exclusive problem. In point of fact, we have fewer late-shipping titles than our largest competitor at the moment. But you readers tend to notice ours more--I'm guessing because you're more interested in what we've got going on.)

What you're really seeing is the beginning of an evolution in exactly how this business operates, in my opinion. We've been built around a monthly model for so long that that's what most people are used to, but the plain fact of the matter is that that's changing, slowly but surely. With the rising costs of most comics, readers as a whole demand a higher level of quality from the books they buy, and they're more likely to be willing to wait for them (or just wait for the inevitable collection.) That's slowly changing the way that comics are made. I expect that in a decade's time, the entire delivery system is going to look quite different, and there won't be as much a reliance on the monthly release schedule as there is today--it's a hold-over from the era when comics were mass-market periodicals.

You'll find very few people who love the work of Jack Kirby more than I do, and yes, Jack would do three books a month back in the day, as some "speed over quality" types will tell you. The part that they'll leave out, of course, is that Kirby only did that much work (holing up in his basement seven days a week, sometimes for fourten hours at a stretch) because that's what he had to do in order to support his family. The rates were that poor. If Kirby was workig in the industry today, he'd be able to make a living doing substantially fewer pages--and I expect that would mean that he'd produce fewer pages, and take more time in doing them so as to keep up with his peers. He'd also have more time to spend with that family of his. And with the back-end money from collections of his work, there'd be months where he wouldn't have to work at all. So no, I don't think Jack's example is completely relevant. Today's creators have been freed from the crushing need to do hard labor on the chain gang in order to feed their families, and this is a good thing.

There are some artists who can produce twelve quality issues in a clandar year, and more. Mark Bagley. Salvador Larroca. John Romita Jr. And we love it when we find these guys, and we use them as much as we can. But just because Bryan Hitch or Adi Granov can't do that, are you saying we shouldn't use them at all? Because when you ask "HOW ABOUT MAKING WRITERS AND AUTHORS STICK TO DEADLINES??? " there clearly has to be an "or else" built into the equation. And the honest "or else' that I see based on your approach is that all of a sudden all of the best people are working for the competition, and their books are suddenly great, and Marvel's books suddenly stink, but come out regularly.

And you don't really want that any more than we do.

Tom B

:o(
I feel bad, because it seems that certain fans are taking advantage of these blogs to act like.......well like......... hm. I don't want to type it out and have this flagged as offensive, but I think everyone can get my drift. I'm glad you take the time to answer our questions, and take the time to even post these blogs.

But I just feel that certain people with certain attitudes are the ones that usually spoil good stuff like this for others. I mean theres nothing wrong in complaining about something you don't like and voicing your opinion, but I do believe that there is a certain way to do so. I think people should be careful about taking this oppourtunity for granted and abusing it. I mean if I had people "yelling" and voicing their opinions in a very negative way at me all the time, I'd get tired and say you know what? ** this and stop doing it all together.

So I want to thank you Tom for always taking the time to respond, so professionally and calmly and let you know that there are still fans who appreciate it greatly. I just feel bad because I don't want you guys to feel that all of us readers are just a bunch of greedy babies who don't care what you guys go through in the process of getting us these great comics, because I do care, and I know that I'm not alone in that aspect. I guess I just got upset because I didn't like the way certain people have been jumping at throats in the blogs, and I know it may not mean much that I posted this, but just wanted to let you know, thats all. I think its always nice to let people know that they are appreciated.

Good luck on the retreat, I hope you enjoy it.

Posted by TwilghtDragon on 2006-06-27 10:57:02

"And with the back-end money from collections of his work, there'd be months where he wouldn't have to work at all."

Except for the fact that currently, Kirby's estate makes no royalties on reprints of his work. This is something that sticks in my craw a little bit. I have no problem forking over big dollars for the FF Omnibus and the Eternals Omnibus and the wonderful Masterworks based on his work, but the fact that these books are being done without paying Kirby's estate a penny- at a time when Marvel's reaping huge rewards from movies based on his characters- is a little tough to take.

Sorry, had to get that out. I know none of that is your call, Tom.

On a happier note, is there any writer more improved than Fabian Nicieza? Thunderbolts and Cable/Deadpool are fantastic reads every month.

And *I* love Patrick Zircher.

Thanks for the blog and for subjecting yourself to all this abuse. Go Blue Hens!

Posted by wishlish on 2006-06-27 11:11:16

My suggestion would be to reduce the number of pages for a story in an issue (and reduce the price likewise) - you could release more issues at a lower price point that way, and perhaps sell more copies (I certainly pay more attention to new comics when they come out at a low price point, the new Casanova series for example). Alternatively, you could substitute some of those pages for a back-up strip by a different artist.

Posted by Fetsur on 2006-06-27 12:32:30

I'd have to completely disagree with Fetsur. Not that I'm complaining, because I truly love the structure of comics, but comics are short enough as it is. I often find that certain issues weren't given the proper length to develop. If the size of these books were to decrease, than the number of poorly developed issues would surely increase (wow, I'm starting to sound like my Economics teacher). I'm the type of guy that reads all his comics the moment he brings them home. I also finish reading all of them in less than an hour. Because of this, two things always occur: 1) my desire for them to have lasted longer and 2) the longing for the next issue in the story arc. If you make them any shorter, you might as well turn them into children's books. With shorter, poorly developed issues, I can see myself losing the great feeling of wanting the next chapter in the series. As a true fan, I can deal with a few delays, as long as Marvel keeps on coming out with such great quality work.

Thanks Tom for the time you take to put into this blog. Its greatly appreciated.

Posted by offbeatblink on 2006-06-27 13:06:04

Question
A related question I've wondered about for awhile: When an artist is working well in advance of a release date -- like Jae Lee or Ed McGuinness on U4 -- how do they pay the bills during that time? Does Marvel give them an advance? Pay as the pages come in? Or are they on their own? I ask because I support the idea of getting shorter works or arcs "in the can" before soliciting them, but I wonder if it is economically feasible for the talent involved -- or the publisher, for that matter.

Posted by Jon Morris on 2006-06-27 13:10:08

offbeatblink, you might like to have a look at the Uncanny X-Men run by Chris Claremont and John Byrne. Or any Marvel comic from the 1970s. I wouldn't say they're underdeveloped at all. In fact, I'd say there are plenty of scripts that would benefit from being tightened up like that. No, not all of them, but plenty enough.

What's more, the way I'm suggesting, you'd get as much content anyway... just spread over more issues and a more frequent publishing schedule.

And this second it occurs to me that Marvel (and indeed Mr Brevoort himself) is kind of trying this sort of thing as it is, with the Civil War: Front Line miniseries, which has three features of lengths 18, 11 and 3 pages (for issue one at least). So my suggestion is somewhat redundant, and I should instead commend Tom for going through with it before I even suggested it... :) What's more, it's the first time I've seen Marvel do an anthology series right - the stories aren't too different from one another (mainly due to having the same writer and editor, and live very much in the same "world", having the common bond of the Civil War event) and yet they achieve completely different things. Stories continue from one issue to the next and there's a new issue every two weeks. Marvel could have just done this as two separate miniseries, but this way it's much more satisfying for the monthly reader.

Posted by Fetsur on 2006-06-27 14:25:43

Tardiness in Comics
First of all thanks for taking the time to respond to my post. I hope all that read it see it, and all my posts, as the passion of a fan that loves the genre and not attacks against you or Marvel or anyone else.

You are right Tom, my post was blunt. It was in response to what I perceived as a blunt blog posting from you. Your criticism of fans and the late Mr.Gruenwald rubbed me the wrong way.

And I will tell you that I do say what I mean. I don't believe in buying excessively late titles in the name of quality. I own Secret War 1-4 and didn't buy issue 5 because of how late it was. I lost interest. I never completed my run on Spider-man/Black Cat. And I dropped the Ultimates completely. I put my money where my mouth is. It irks me when I read on message boards, fans complaining about tardy comics and yet they continue to buy them. I think fandom as a whole needs to show their displeasure with this by speaking with their wallets.

And you are absolutely right that my opinion about the art on Secret War was just that, my opinion. It is totally subjective. However, you have been in the business long enough to know that sales do not necessarily mean good. For example, alot of people are hunting down the Warrior comic with Santa Claus in it.(from WWF's Ultimate Warrior) Does that mean it's good? Quite the opposite. Fans will buy comics because of the hype, because a certain creator is on it, because of a certain character, out of habit, because they are completists, or simply because it was in their hold box at the comic store. Now obviously, most businesses don't care why people are buying as long as they are buying. However, it is important to remember that just because a comic sells does not mean it was good. The recent Fantastic Four: A Death in the Family comes to mind.

And comic tardiness is not exlcusive to Marvel. However, to me, it did not make sense to address the issues of your Distinguished Competition since you have no control over what they do. But as a Marvel editor, you do have control over some of the tardy issues from Marvel.One of my recent worries about the competition was their hiring of Joe Madureira given his track record of tardiness. I don't care how much I like his work, I won't but it if it's excessively late. And your guess about people noticing Marvel lateness more as a sign of increased interest is wrong.(personally I read 10-15 books a month from both Marvel and your competion each) Why people notice Marvel more is because of how late issues are. I cannot recall the last time your competition had an issue that was 1+years late. I can with Marvel. And sure they may have more late issues, but how many of those are only like 1-2 weeks late? I'm ok with that from both companies. But you cannot tell me that you can look a fan in the eye and tell them that a year between issues in the middle of an arc is acceptable. And you can't really justify having late titles just because the competition has them.

And I hope you are wrong about the future of comic deliveries. There is no way I would want to wait 2+ months between issues. I read so many comics that I have a hard enough time remembering what happened the previous month as it is. I think this format would also alienate kids and thus hurt the future of comics. A compromise I don't mind is the break such as what you guys did with Astonishing X-men and the second season that Steve Gerber did with Hard Times. This keeps story arcs from being broken up and gives slower arists time to get issues in the can before it goes to print. As a fan this makes more sense to me rather than spreading one 6-issue arc out over a year's time.

And there are plenty of good artists out there that are putting out monthly titles. I don't think you should be rewarding slower artists with more work. It's a business and the more productive workers get the benefits. Do I think you shouldn't use artists on a monthly title that can't keep a monthly schedule. Of course. I think that is just common sense. Put them on mini-series, one-shots, etc. Tom, you seem to be saying that quality and punctuality cannot go hand-in-hand and that isn't true. Both Marvel and the competition are putting out some great titles, art and story, that are coming out on time each month. These should be the standard by which other titles should be measured. This is what fans like me want.

Thanks for listening.

Posted by thatsmystapler on 2006-06-27 18:06:23

did i ask u sonmthig
any way that was imformitve

Posted by tarhaun on 2006-06-27 20:15:13

I have to say, while I agree with lots of what you say Tom, there are some parts that definitely kind of scare me. as an Iron Man fan I absolutely hated waiting so long for issues 1-6 of vol. 4. Plus, I felt the story could have been told in less issues. while adi's art was amazing, it wasn't worth the wait in my opinion. Patrick zircher's art is wonderful and he's doing a fantastic job and I'm much happier having the issues out on time. I have to believe that overall, punctuality and quality can work together. while I can totally accept a late issue from time to time, a steady stream of them does get quite irritating. I have to agree stapler up above, just because an issue sells doesn't mean its good. I bought those issues of Iron Man because I wanted to know what happened, out of loyalty because he's my favorite character, and because I kept hoping "well let me stick with it and it should get better eventually". I must say, I do hope most comics continue to come out on a monthly basis. It is a delicate balancing act and I applaud you for working so hard at it. Like stapler, I'm being stretched pretty thin, don't know about other fans. But if problems continue it certainly makes one want to buy comics less. I think it's a sad day when Iron Man's new creative team has to advertise themselves as being "monthly". All in all, Iron Man's new creative team is doing a wonderful job and I really appreciate your taking the time to explain things. I know fans and customers can get very passionate and it may at times excite tempers. your continued patience and hard work is definitely a good quality.

Posted by CypherHalo on 2006-06-27 22:46:02

I think the solution to this problem, is in the case of certain creators, to wait and have several months (or even the WHOLE storyline) of work "in the can" which will decrease the risk of late issues.

Posted by scarletrose1968 on 2006-06-28 10:39:46

Slow creators
Well, what thatsmystapler said, basically. Count me in as another who would rather see dynamic, unashamedly comic book storytelling (hello Patrick Zircher) on a monthly basis to lifeless paintings spread over a couple of years.

I do lose interest in books that are publicised as unmissable and then fail to show up in the shops. Unless there's a good behind-the-scenes reason (such as family problems or personal illness) for an artist or writer falling behind I'd rather they were replaced; there are an astonishing number of comics creatives who have fallen out of fashion who could do as good as job as this year's hot talent.

And if big names from other areas of entertainment, such as Kevin Smith or Joss Whedon, can't deliver what they promise, I'd rather see work by people whose first love is comics - people who appreciate how lucky they are to work with Marvel characters for a loyal family of fans. Let's see Marvel nurture its own talent rather than buy in dabblers from elsewhere and have to fight for their attention.

Posted by Volthoom on 2006-06-28 19:18:29

Relax
It sounds like some of us fans out there just live and die a little too hard with "new comic Wednesdays". Sure, I hate late titles as much as the next uber-fan, but if it's a story you enjoy it's not worth getting bent out of shape about the last issue. Most likely you're reading other titles anyway, so read something else and don't get so worked up about it. After all, it's a freakin' comic book. There are more important things in life. At least there should be. :) If not, you have bigger problems than comic book companies who can't get titles out on time. :)

Posted by spiderseppy on 2006-06-29 11:14:23

Don't Do It
I may be in the minority, but I really don't care that much whether an issue is on time or not. In the age of pull lists, it's not like I'm going to miss it when it finally does come out. I pick up my stash roughly once a month, and enjoy whatever I've got.

Moreover, Marvel has an automatic incentive to get their books out quickly: if there's no product to buy, they don't get paid. Now, if a retailer were to write in to complain about missed shipping dates, I would understand.

Posted by Lonesome Pinky on 2006-07-24 22:01:53

Array

Enter a response to this blog post: