Thor News ?
Hi Tom !

Thanks for the thoughts on the importance of characterization. You mentioned how people have complained about Thor in the past. That got me thinking about the Asgardians' current arc. I am enjoying the JMS run right now. It's fun, different and unusual!

BTW: Could we have some Thor updates in the news section of MARVEL ? It's been a while!

Thanks!

Monday Morning Lunatic !

Posted by Mon Morn Lunatic on 2008-01-14 20:37:33
How can Marvel honestly expect to keep custom
I have been reading Marvel forever and I have noticed the past two years especially that the big stories Marvel puts out end in duds. It happened with Civil War. It happened with World War Hulk and now OMD. It even is happening in non event books like Loners. I seriously think Marvel needs better quality control and needs to ensure the whole story is great. As a reader I end up putting down money for most of a story arc and then the final issue it is like thud. Totally bad, and doesn't represent the rest of the story well. Marvel as a company should have been embarrassed to put out that final issue of OMD like it came out. And both you and Joe have been working long enough in comics to recognize when a comic is bad. To be honest it rank of DC's Amazon Attacks. The first three parts of OMD were enjoyable. The last part seemed like a bunch of stuff shoved together. Customers will only put up with that for so long. I view that as a total lack of respect to the people that buy Marvel's product. Honestly, how can you expect people to even want to try out the new stories of a new status quo when the final part of the story of the old status quo was awful.

Posted by mre2u on 2008-01-14 20:39:10
Marvel is a business
Tom, I'm often impressed by the restraint you show in the face of laughable statements like the one above regarding the "concerted effort" to destroy Spider-Man in the minds of the fans.

Frankly, your digression about the pernicious effects of power stats on characterization is likely more interesting than a gentle reminder that Marvel is a business and a concerted effort to upset fans makes no business sense. However, I sometimes genuinely wonder what motive someone must imagine you and other editors have in so desperately wanting to destroy the characters you've spent your professional careers working on. Do the senders of these types of emails ever elaborate?

-Brendan

Posted by BrendanHW on 2008-01-15 02:08:43
"a concerted effort (intentional or otherwise)"
How can you have an unintentional concerted effort?!

Has Spidey been ruined, harmed or lessened? Not in this fans opinion.

Can we all PLEASE get over it already?!?!

Posted by NewChad on 2008-01-15 07:29:36
Word
Yup, just like I was saying before, people are just personally mad about how a character they love is portrayed in the future and so they write in and alternately swear, babble, or pontificate with fancy Doctoral Thesis language in order to get across that they felt bad cause Spidey doesn't do the same stuff they fell in love with.

As for your point about quantifiable strength, I wholly agree! Actually, I agree in a way that completely contradicts my own tendencies. I'm constantly wanting to write down and quantify things within imaginary worlds, but a deeper part of me understands that they work better when the stories hint at possibilities. Once you've said "Oh, that's it, Spidey is able to lift up to ten tons" then you get "alright, so the ELEVEN ton weight is Spidey's kryptonite!" Which is just stupid.

You're right, it's much better to give a general idea of what a hero can do and then let the stories and the personality of the individual characters define them from then on.

Too bad the hyper-scientific age we live in doesn't encourage that. :( And besides, isn't Spidey supposed to have the proportional strength of a spider? I'm sure there's a formula to figure this out and solve the argument!

Couldn't resist...

Posted by PseudoSherlock on 2008-01-15 08:16:06
no prize

Posted by notapotatoe on 2008-01-15 09:47:07
Marvel handbook
I suppose if twenty years of Spider-man stories can be undone with a deal with the devil and Harry can be brought back to life without explanation, ignoring the handbook stats should not be that big a deal.

'Spider-man is about youth." Thats why we have Ultimate Spider-man and its great. However 20s loser Spider-man is really not very cute anymore. Spider-man is always sold to us as a relatable charcter, I suppose Marvel thinks comic fans only relate to a twenty something guy who lives at home with a parent. Oh and ending your marrige by making a deal with the devil is not a relateable action either, if that was an option in life, I am afraid how many times it might have been taken.

I can see ending the marriage, what I cant get past how it was done and the "new" make-up of the universe. When Spidey unmasked in Civil War, we finally had an interesting direction to go with, now that big event is a moot point as far as Spider-man goes and without Tony Remembering him, it really does take away from an already questionable story.

Well, there is always Spider-girl and Ultimate.

Posted by jefseg77 on 2008-01-15 10:28:25
so Tom
I agree with what you are basically saying. I think one of the problems is that fans and writers tend to think of power enhancement as character progression a la DragonballZ. It sometimes works, like in the case of Sue Richards, but more often it limits the stories that can be told about the character. Having said all that, why did Marvel Editorial allow the Spider-Man power boosts in "the Other" in the first place (stronger, spikes in arms, organic web-shooters, stickier, thermal vision)? And is that why the Spider-office never really explored those new found powers at all once the buildup to CW began?

Posted by bigdaddyhub2 on 2008-01-15 10:53:51
Really Tired
Frankly I'm really sick of the Marvel staff making reply's to issues that are of little or no substance. So heres a challenge, instead of stating dont ask us were new here, stop putting the blame on the other guys and take responsibilty. You are the ones that can or WONT do something about this. Second stop focusing on usless excuses that continuity wasn't changed and using Its MAGIC we dont have to explain crap. We'll explain when we have to, well guess what YOU HAVE TO, because there have been many many examples of how continuity has been changed, and has been left in such a mess that LOYAL fans now have to guess what did and did not happen. AS JMS stated its fiction 101 stuff, nothing makes any sence, and it needs to atleast to some degree, and its far from it. LAST Address the Issue of Spiderman's DEAL, and stop hiding behind it was MJ and that he didn't seek it...HE AGREED, BOTH HAD TWO... what would uncle Ben think, MAY or heck anyone think about this. How do you explain is so bad that a deal with the devil to make it never have happened is the way to go, is that really MARVEL's stance? Is a hero not a real Hero when married, so instead of devorcing like an adult, or death, or sacrifice, we have a deal with the devil, that is made ok by the fact that he sacrificied his LOVE... Spiderman will be forever tainted by this, is that what MARVEL wants, there flagship character Taited by the Devil Deal....MARVEL needs to step up and regain the respect of the best comic company in the industry by addressing this, and or FIXING it!

Posted by DS2008 on 2008-01-15 11:58:09
Acknowledgement of sadness
Hi Tom, no disrespect but the entire focus on the stats doesn't seem to really answer the question. (not I agree with the formulation, but it feels as a way of evading the actueal question)

The thing that has struck me these last days is the way in which fans seem to be portrayed as 'psychotic freaks' and that we overidentify with the characters. I seem to continue to get the message that Marvel wants fans to identify LESS with the characters. Now... to me it would seem as though the identification part is actually the strongest selling point of a comic. The reason why I personally read Marvel Comics and only a few DC Comics is exactly because I so strongly identify with these comic book 'persons'.

By undermining and/or downplaying these feelings Marvel is undermining its strongest asset. Yes, comic fans can be very vocal, but that's because they CARE and I think we comic fans are the most loyal crowd out there.

My point is: I understand that sometimes decisions have to be made that will go against what many fans scream for, but it would be nice if our feelings of commitment and identification would not be treated seemingly with a great deal of disrespect.

I gotta be honest here Tom, I have read your plea for respect coming from the fans, and I totally agree... But similarly it would be nice if the saddened fans would not be treated as 'overly enthusiastic'.

Honestly? The entire OMD got me pissed first, next saddened and disapointed. Spider-Man has been in my life for so many years and the entire OMD story really bugs me. I will continue to read Spidey, but I cannot shake off a nasty feeling.

It would be nice if Marvel would acknowledge the fact that this story has hurt a lot op readers and would show some respect for the fact that some people actually care...

I hope I've made my point clear. English is not my native language, so please excuse me for any spelling mistakes etc.

Posted by Zigy on 2008-01-15 12:13:42
what can we do?
tom, i think what people want is consistency in the stories they read, and they expect it with characters as high profile as spidey. it can be frustrating when things like powers and abilities change to suit a story and at the whim of the writer. it doesn't seem too much to ask really.

Posted by Knight of Fury on 2008-01-15 13:10:11
Id have to agree with Tom that its his actions that make him a hero instead of his stats, but thats one of the things that just got screwed up. Spidey just made a deal with the devil for selfish reasons, ("I cant let her die like this, not when it's my fault.") so his conscience would be clear. Thats not exactly a heroic attitude.

Posted by megamile15 on 2008-01-15 23:51:30
Comix for Grrrls
Hi Tom

This is a completely different topic, because I don’t know how to send you people an e-mail. So you needn’t post it, but I thought I’d send it anyway. It’s on the subject of comics and female readers.

Personally, I really love X-Men. But I also follow Ms. Marvel and Spidergirl because I like comic books about female characters. But what I really like is Spiderman Loves Mary-Jane. And I liked the Rogue books, but what I liked best was the one where she explored her past rather than the one where she went to Japan and indulged in all the usual super-hero fight-outs. So far, perhaps, no more than you might expect.

But I would go further than that. Avengers Disassembled was brilliant, but then we had Civil War and now nefarious Skrulls, and it's hyper-active crisis after hyper-active crisis. As a person who also reads novels (and more women read novels than men do, as you no doubt know), I’d really like stuff that was more character led than event led.

There are graphic novels by women that are character led, but the art is usually deliberately simplified, or even black and white. What I would really like is the same sort of thing as you'd find in a novel (rather than a sci-fi SFX adventure movie), but with full colour dynamic Marvel-style graphics.

These would maybe have to go out under a different imprint, as it would not really be Marvel stuff (it would just have the high Marvel production standards), and as the aim would be to attract a different market. But personally I am convinced the market is out there. All it needs is some clever people to supply it.

Cheers

Sue


Posted by sue1485 on 2008-01-16 06:02:15
Just a couple of points...
Ive been reading Marvel for years and have invested a lot of time, money and love into these comics. Spidey has always been married in my lifetime and that never bothered me, so its pretty obvious which side of the BND make-over I stand on so I won't rant about that here.

I just wanted to agree with Zigy and Knight in the last couple of posts. The feeling that I am getting from Marvel at the moment is that the passionate reaction to BND is coming from crazy and over the top fans. It just feels like they/we are being viewed with derision and disrespect. And second, while I agree that the 'ten-ton limit' and other hardline statistic followers can be a little OTT, consistency from characters that have been going for so long is really the issue that we are worried about.

And my final thing, Mr Brevoort; I challenge you to respond to some of the posts on here that, no disrespect to Horatio, are addressing the real problems that BND has caused. Its fairly obvious that the Marvel staff aren't systematically trying to sabotage Spidey or other heroes, but "its magic, we don't have to explain it" is just awful. The fans want to know how these huge changes are affecting the wider MU. No-one remembering who Peter is, the power changes in The Other, Aunt May's house, Harry alive, the Iron Spider suit, the New Avengers, the Pete/Tony dynamic etc etc etc. Its just not enough to produce a fun Spider-Man comic with BND 1, when for anyone who has been reading for more than five minutes it just doesn't feel like 'our' Spider-Man any more. These huge steps back and changes are leaving such a bad taste in our mouths that, until these things are properly addressed, the backlash will continue.

Posted by LoganHowlett on 2008-01-16 15:55:46
Spiderman's Character
If Spiderman makes a deal with the devil, obviously his character is beyond flawed. Is like a hero killing 10 babies to save Aunt May's life because he feels guilty about her getting shot. Now, we all know there are other ways, but if you make it in the book the only way, and let him do it, then not only does the writer have poor character, so does the character he is writing about.

Posted by gaidin23 on 2008-01-16 17:35:14
You ruined Spider-Man
Yes, we identify with the characters. We can't identify with someone who deals with the devil and trades away his marriage. It's stupid, insulting and lazy. We can't identify with that.

Yes, Spidey's character has always been the most important thing about him - which MARVEL RUINED BY HAVING HIM MAKE A DEAL WITH THE DEVIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by HiddenVorlon on 2008-01-18 06:55:26
hrrm?
Since when is spider-man only about youth? i thought it was all the great power and responsibility stuff?

its funny how u mentioned about hulk, thor, iron man and other characters and how this have been done to them before. for me, to all this other characters, they have been some kind of progression to these characters. whether good or bad. iron man became alcoholic but overcame it. hulk is a monster, than became humane, then monster+humane, etc.. at least to this other characters, they dont just wipe off a whole lot of continuity and history.

what u did to spider-man was not progression, but regression. he's a youth, found love, married. then wipe everything off like it never happened just because some ppl in the upper echelons dont like him being married and so that he can date again. its just sad.

Posted by mdshaman on 2008-01-18 22:33:45
Tom the politician?
Tom,
you've been watching too many politicians. You and the other "leaders" at Marvel have gotten amazingly good at taking a question and not only not answering it but taking it in a completely different direction. Why has not a single editor come out and told us how this makes Spider-Man stories better?

These new issues are basically repeats of things we read years ago. Aren't characters supposed to progress not regress? There are just too many problems with the changes that Marvel has made to Spider-Man.

I decided today to cancel my Spider-Man from my pull list and won't buy it anymore because this is not the Spider-Man I know and have dutifully paid for for more than 20 years. It's just a waste of time to read this trash. Until you guys fix this mistake, make mine something else.

Posted by spider-rudy on 2008-01-19 17:34:34
BND
When are we gonna see any of the classic villains again? and is Kraven still alive, I mean after all, you guys did erase 20 years of spidey comic book history.

Posted by F346 on 2008-01-20 18:00:41
Tom the politician
I agree with this reader. Read the first two brand new day stories, felt not only taken for a fool, but more importantly to you who publish these "stories" bored to tears. cancelled Spidey from my pulls. Felt you guys were going in a really cool direction, then you had your "Dallas" moment and lost me. good luck in the direction you have chosen, i think you're going to need it.


Posted by drpmc on 2008-01-20 19:32:28
No respect
great response zigy

Posted by dsikirica on 2008-01-21 12:13:10
Very sad - a travesty
I have just finished reading (sadly) the first Brand New Day story arc, and it does violence to the last three decades of Spiderman - it's like we never should have read the last twenty years worth of comics at all. I have been reading Marvel Comics since I was a little boy in the 1970s, and I am still reading a variety of titles today. But I will never read Spiderman again given the ludicrous way in which One More Day ended, and the stupid new "world" Spiderman inhabits which has no eye to history, and infects Spiderman with people long since dead in the old story arcs (such as Harry freaking Osborn).

For those of you who are old enough, this is exactly what happened on a story arc in the 1980's show "Dallas", where the character Bobby wakes up and suddenly, the last season or so of the show is completely wiped clean. Harry Osborn is now alive (and not married to the same person he was before), Peter still lives with Aunt May, no one knows his identity anymore (but the rest of Civil War still happened ????) These are just a few of the changes that make the title unreadable to me. I appreciate that comics are about change - I have loved the changes in other titles that I have followed (e.g. Thunderbolts, Iron Man, etc.) But this change is absolute insanity. It requires us to remember nothing of the past 20 or so years of plot development. I have no idea why this was ever seen to be a good idea, but I wanted to say that I have never written in my 30 years of reading comics before - but I feel like crying what you have done to Spiderman. It may appeal to very young readers - but for your older fans, it is pretty devastating.

I will continue to read other Marvel titles which have wonderful plot and story arcs. However, I am through with Spiderman.

As a last thought - to the current writers - please please please reconsider and try to put the pieces back together as closely as possible to what was happening before. (Anything can happen in the world of comics.)

I don't want to be the last issue I ever read of Spiderman to be like this - it is too sad.

Posted by Unhappy on 2008-01-26 13:29:18