I disagree with your premise that Spider-Man is about youth. Gen13 was a comic about youth. Spider-Man was a comic book about angst and worrying. Peter Parker is an old man in a young man's body. that's why getting married made so much sense- he had someone to share some of the worries, but also had something else to worry about.

If Spider-Man was as much about youth as you say, he would have stayed in a few more nights with Gwen Stacy and let Doc Ock fight the Avengers or the FF. But he didn't.

One other point- One More Day would have been a lot better to swallow if the "bad guy" was Norman Osborn with the Infinity Gauntlet messing with Pete. Just think about it.



Posted by wishlish on 2008-01-22 20:16:52
"I came up with a slightly better way to phrase the main argument and get my point across: Spider-Man is about growing up. "

You came up with it? That's what I suggested when you originally made the youth argument :p

Anyway, the one thing you haven't addressed is the central problem with what's been done here; in order to keep people interested in a series about growing up, people need to feel like what happens in the life of the character matters. And the cosmic reset button destroys that.

Posted by CylverSaber on 2008-01-22 20:41:05
"Not a fine Spider-Man story!"
Tom,

I agree with you! I thought of this idea a while back when Joe Q was testing the waters at Newsarama with "hints" about the "spider-marriage" coming to an end. But, no it wouldn't work for Spider-Man. I hope I communicated yesterday that the "child" story might work with some other married couple in the MU. So I am in concord with you that this is a "married couple" story and not a Spider-man story !

Thanks for the reply !

Monday Morning Lunatic !

Posted by Mon Morn Lunatic on 2008-01-22 20:49:30
But is the value of having Spider-Man single again (without being divorced or widowed) equal to setting Marvel down the road to a Crisis. That's part of what I don't understand here -- Joe's insistence that Marvel continuity hasn't changed. It clearly has. Forget the marriage for a second (no pun intended), but with Harry being suddenly not dead, it seems just the height of strangeness to insist that continuity isn't different than it used to be.

Posted by motteditor on 2008-01-22 21:59:15
Someone Who isn't angry!?!? This is ludicrous
Mr. Brevoort, I'm very sorry that my fellow comic book fans have been attacking you, among other editors, writers and the like, over the last couple weeks. Yes, when I first read OMD i was furious, then I started thinking... it actually sorta makes sense. I loved the married peter, I love the single peter. I just love Peter Parker, I always have. I may not read amazing (although I'd like to start since this seems like a good jumping on point.) but I grew up on Marvel Comics and Cartoons. Peter Parker was always the character that stood out to me. I am the same worry wart, over average learner (i wouldn't exactly say smart all the time), with the same sense of justice and right/wrong. I've always been the person to take responsibility for almost everything in my life (oh wait, also like peter, haha.) Whether or not he's married isn't the important thing. As long as I can read about Peter Parker, I'll be happy. That's not to say I'm some mindless sheep who doesn't know when he's being fed a crappy story.

I'm only 17 so I really doubt that my opinion matters to the people who seem to think that Spider-Man belongs to them. I'm sorry that people have taken personal shots at you and your fellow editors. It is a shame. It's just kinda... rude. It seems to me that some people think this decision was made merely to attack them and make them angry.

To be honest the only real problem I had with the story was the fact that Pete made a deal with the Devil (Mephisto, yeah i know there's a difference) That kinda broke my whole perception of the character, but again... I spent some time thinking about this (probably while slacking off in my Physics class, I know, shame on me) and realized that it sort of makes sense. Like I stated earlier, I'm a person who brings responsibility on themselves that obviously isn't my own. Peter is the exact same way and he (and myself) constantly find ways to justify the feeling of responsibility. This wasn't that hard considering the circumstances. (Civil War and whatnot) So really my big problem with the story was righted. (although its now justified I'm still ashamed of him for making a deal with the devil)

I think that this drastic change will lead to some great storytelling. I love Slott's work on Avengers: Initiative and it seems like he's got some cool ideas cooking up in ASM. I think the smart thing to do on the editorial side that would please some of the discontent consumers would be to publish a guide (either as a larger volume TPB style or separate issues if more than one is needed) of what stories are still canonical. I know that would please me and I think it could possibly be a nice little compromise, although I'm sure people would still complain. I'm just going to accept the change and see what comes of it. No reason fighting it, its not gonna change back too soon, then people would complain about another ret-con so soon. (it must be annoying knowing you can never please everyone.)

I've only started reading your blog in the last couple months and now I can't miss one post. I find most of your thoughts rather interesting, especially those concerning general storytelling and not just those specific to comics. I someday hope to write Graphic Novels and hope that the wisdom contained in your blog posts is the same kind of wisdom that my editor (oh lord I hope i make it that far someday) tells me. Saying that, your series of posts about breaking into the business put a little bit of a damper on my dreams, but at the same time made me all the more determined.

I know I seem like I'm being a real suck up, but I'm just sick of this argument being so one sided. If you actually took the time out of your day to read this insanely drawn out post, thank you. I hope you enjoyed something in it.

~ Chris

Posted by Anson17 on 2008-01-22 22:24:53
Responsibility
Youth? I thought the core theme of Spider-Man was responsibility? Isn't getting married the ultimate responsibility? Isn't choosing the person you've committed to "until death do you part" over the "mother" who is soon to die, and therefore choosing guilt, instead of being guilt-free responsibility?

With great power comes great youth? Perhaps the saying was also changed as part of OMD...

Posted by LOTRKing on 2008-01-22 23:50:50
Whats the big deal?
First of all ret cons are always a little messy and somewhat exposed because gee golly willackers its a comic book and none of us are idiots, But what i think the major problem people have is that it "erases" years of continuity. But it doesnt, just becuase the current stories of spider-man dont recognize those events does not mean they never happened, heck slap a number onto the end of earth and spider-man didnt make a deal with the devil and aunt may is dead, but thats clearly not where marvel wants to take spider-man right now, not to say they dont make mistakes, im just saying that retcons dont devalue story just cuz they may or may not effect said current story line
the end

Posted by peterparker4907 on 2008-01-23 02:53:35
Sometimes i find it hard to believe just how rude some people are to you, Tom. This is your job and you have to do what you think is best for the future of the Company, Title, and Character. The accusation that Marvel and yourself have been trying to ruin one of your characters is just plain insulting. I honestly do not understand how you put up with it.



Posted by dugdale24 on 2008-01-23 03:07:00
Peter was a fairly rational kid when he was young, yes he made mistakes. But he was rational enough to sacrifice his personal life in order to save the city.

The premise you are putting forth is that as he got older he didn't mature.

I just don't buy it, and I won't buy the comics.




Posted by jjcomicfan on 2008-01-23 06:43:46
Oh
Apparently my post to the Youth topic was a day late...

Yeah, I agree. Comic characters are frozen archetypes that exist for many generations. I think people are just often upset that they can't have them grow up with them, as suggested, and be their constant shadow.

Posted by PseudoSherlock on 2008-01-23 07:41:47
Blog Image
I just had to repost to say that I think your blog image for today is desperately apt! Wherever Spidey is right now, I'm sure he has a blistering headache from all the fan angst directed at him from afar.

Posted by PseudoSherlock on 2008-01-23 07:44:14
Formula Fiction
Mr. Brevoort, there’s not a hint within either of these two blog entries re Spider-Man of the attitudes toward the character that a creative writer would have. It’s all about corporate marketing and trying toaa protect a corporate asset from blemishes and age spots.

Your description of Parker as a young man who consistently screws up and has problems could be applied to Charlie Brown grown older, or a cousin of Luann, or other comic strip characters who have travails and trials and deal with them--but Spider-Man’s stories aren’t comic strips, and the people who pay to read about Spider-Man deserve more creativity from the company than you’re apparently willing to give them. What you say Spider-Man stories should be is formula fiction in its most boring form. After someone’s read the stories for a year or two, he knows how stories will begin, proceed, and end, so, if he’s sensible, he stops paying to read them. There’s no need for continuity with such a character, since the plots, characterizations, and themes are either constant or repeatedly recycled; there’s no need for creator credits either, since the formula fiction you’re extolling is often done anonymously, using a house name, or under a pseudonym.

If creativity is no longer a concern, then why not simply remake older stories with updated art and dialogue? I doubt that the people who like “Brand New Day” would care. The controversy over OMD/BND and statements from pros siding with you have revealed that they view writing the stories as much more of a job than an outlet for creativity, and anything that makes writing the stories easier and faster is welcome.

It’s interesting to consider how much Marvel relies on characters that were defined during the '70s, when the writers had more creative freedom than they do now. If Marvel had enforced the editorial policies then that you’re enforcing now, Marvel Comics would probably be defunct, and you’d be working somewhere else, or be in another field entirely.

As with “Avengers Disassembled” and other controversial storylines, you’re not attempting to defend OMD on its merits, probably since there are no merits to cite. If nothing else, OMD has made readers more aware of how editors and editorial policies influence story content, and raised their awareness of editorial failures.

SRS


Posted by Steven R. Stahl on 2008-01-23 07:56:29
Frozen Archetypes
.. are the major problem I have with most comics and the reason I tend to read independent comics.

It is much harder to make a story that has a sense of progress that grows and evolves but much more interesting. The reason why Heroes was a success in my book is that it dared to tread the line so few series did. Instead of constantly producing episodic content that left the viewer back where they started ready for the next episode it evolved and had a progressive story with a beginning, middle, and end. Another example is Bablylon 5.

Stories that are episodic in a static world will always be entertaining but never great and ultimately unfullfilling.

I want a world where the great writers of Marvel are constantly taking risks to produce new content that evolves. It is silly to have characters stay the same age for 30 years. Lets have characters start out, live their lives, age, and pass on to the next generation. I love new things. I loved JMS's Rising Stars and I loved Jim Lee's start of image comics. In general, I don't like comics that try to relive the past.

It is said that mortality is what makes life precious and that people are motivated to grow by the thought that they will eventually die. Comics need the same sense of urgency or there is no energy or emotion in the stories.

Why do I want to collect a comic if I can miss a hundred issues and come back to a comic that is almost identical to the one I left?

I am hoping that the recent development in Spiderman turns out to be more than a retcon. I am hoping that we see a world where Spiderman and Mary Jane both find each other again after the deep emotional turmoil and pain that makes for an epic love story. That to me was the promise of One More Day. Life should never be easy but the difficulty is what makes it worth living.

Posted by shaunbed on 2008-01-23 08:08:37
THEN WHAT IS ULTIMATES FOR?!?!?!

I swear to god tom I just wanna scream it to the hills. There's your young growing up spiderman!! There's the spiderman you want. SO why don't you mess aroudn with that and leave us the one we want?

If you feel this way? Truely feel this way that you want all the kiddies to love spiderman, which they already do. I see plenty of kids reading spiderman the way he was.

Then sell them on ultimate, I just I don't understand why dammit. Cap is gone and now this. Whats next You Gonna take Spiderwoman from me? Miss MArvel? Iron Man? Black Cat? Whats next dammit.

Growing up? You don't stop growing up when you get married and get a job. Hell you don't stop growing up when you have kids! It's a continuing process.

Posted by Seru1 on 2008-01-23 10:22:04
"at that point, he's not growing up any more--he's grown."
Thank you for clearly stating your argument. I see now that it's a compelling one. But I still disagree. You never really finish growing up. Even an adult still has many things to learn about life. Even an old man can still learn from his mistakes and grow and change. See, Spider-Man is about struggling with youth, but that's all of us! Everyone, no matter what their age, is still a kid trying to figure out how to deal with life at times. So I don't think it ruins the character at all to let him grow up, just so long as the story's not over yet!

Posted by MoriartyL on 2008-01-23 10:51:47
In response to Seru1
Seru, I hear you, but in my experience, kids don't want the ultimate u! As a matter of fact, outside of USM, the Ultimate U is not a good place for new young comic readers. WAY too dark.
Here's the deal. ASM is a gateway book. No one starts collecting She-Hulk or the Order or Spider-Girl or Cable/Deadpool out of the blue. Those books are sold because they are connected to the Marvel U. So there are about 3 or 4 gateway books for the Marvel U. X-Men, Avengers, Spider-Man, and perhaps Fantastic Four. The purpose of having a young Spider-Man in the Marvel U is so that new readers can hook into him and then become interested in other books. Comic books NEED Spider-Man to be accessible to young readers.
Kids like reading USM and MA titles, but eventually, they want to connect with the larger story of the Marvel U. ASM is trying to be that connection point.

My guess is that we will see the Avengers and X-men reclaim their gateway positions soon.

Posted by bigdaddyhub2 on 2008-01-23 10:55:24
Comic Geek Speak
Tom was on the most recent podcast that he mentions.

Posted by jkarguth on 2008-01-23 11:20:28
point.game and set.
the prior for editors and editors is to suprise us.
AND THEY DO.
each months, you're still buying your favourite comic-book with your favourite caracters in it.Despite all the readers' advices or post, if the authors and the editors are were they are, it is also because they can do stories that we readers can't. I personnally already said that the deal -with-the-devil-thing is the most interesting thing I've heard of, I see it as a real re-born for the character as an interesting new direction take,and it will certainly provides stories about growing up,and youth,and guilt and responsability ( cause if SpiderMan is about youth, growing-up, and responsability it is still a matter of choices ,or what )and awaits these stories very much,but ok that's my problem.
sometimes I would like also that editors take a little much of a care about posters ideas, I'm thinking especially to a pitch for Exiles /New Exiles in a late editorial simulation, but once again.

Posted by notapotatoe on 2008-01-23 11:45:55
At least one good thing about OMD
It makes for interesting blogs. :-)

Posted by Zigy on 2008-01-23 12:43:50
Flagship title Shmagship title
The collectors' market is one of the great obstacles in trying to convince a new or general audience to even attempt reading comics. Why try a fresh start within a series run ready to eclipse 550 issues unless you're still trying to appeal to the same audience? It's inherently an alienating and confusing starting line especially since there is no entry point to previous storylines unless you've already read them. Even though Ult Spidey has cleared over 100 issues, the full arc trade format (Vol. 1, 2, 3) is something any nube can fill a bookshelf with. So, go one step further. Give fanboys their continuity series, and then also relaunch Amazing with a brand new status quo in a new primary format worth the consumers' money (Marvel Magazine or online content -3 issues worth of a Dan Slott Spidey story and a Back-Up Story of another Marvel hero Iron Fist, Wolverine, whatever for good measure, Marvel articles and news). And then advertise the heck out of it. "Flagship" as it stands only means something to the company and the people they already sell to. it could mean this new product, with a character people like and know, telling good stories, in a format that the ads say people/kids need to buy (like soap, like dvds, like video games) or their lives will be dullsville.

Posted by hamgravy on 2008-01-23 13:21:29
Good Point bigdaddy
Taken

Posted by hamgravy on 2008-01-23 13:23:02
BUT
Back-up stories of other characters within a larger format can do the same thing. It's worked in Japan for some time now and is the franchise machine that feeds all other media.

Posted by hamgravy on 2008-01-23 13:24:36
To SRS
SRS: The problem with your argument is that these characters aren't the writers characters to begin with. They're company characters built on a premise. Plenty of these writers have their own creator-owned characters and titles to tamper with and do with as they wish. And just because there are restrictions doesn't mean there can't be a creative spark used. Personally, a lot of my best work so far in college has been when my teachers have given me boundaries to work in. Any competent writer can work with boundaries and still make a good story.

Posted by doncorswhazie on 2008-01-23 15:49:16
Tom,

While the Spider-Man topic has probably been done to death by now, I was away from comics for several months and just got back in. I actually have no problem with the One More Day Story and the objectives it had. While I do somewhat agree with the quibble over whether Mephisto is somewhat out of Peter's "street level" realm of experience, that's a minor thing.

The Brand New Day storyline kind of caught me off-guard, however. I suppose it seemed that in returning Peter and Spider-Man to the theme of youth, it felt like I was being talked down to in the writing as though I was necessarily a younger reader. It may just be a hiccup in my perception because I am a huge fan of JMS' writing and I was used to his style on Spider-Man. I guess I just hope that in returning Peter to his youthful heydey, the writing style doesn't turn back to a notion that this is "for the kids" as they say.

Other than that, kudos on the recent stories.

Posted by monopolowa on 2008-01-23 16:06:36
Dancing around real issues
Tom,
You make valid points. But the real problem with the new status quo is how we arrived there. I would like to see you write a blog defending making a deal with the devil or explaing wiping out 20 years os history. I hope things can be quickly rectified so i can once again purchasae my favorite comic.

Posted by Motumbo on 2008-01-23 16:46:27
Still a smidge pathetic
Thanks for answering my comment (this is from CodeGuy, I just switched logins.) However, I still disagree with you a little about Peter being young enough to not make certain mistakes.

To me, Peter seems to be at least 25. And that's a very charitable "at least" since I can't quite turn off the part of my brain that tries to figure out how old Franklin Richards is and stuff like that. But I'll say he's 25.

At 25, it's a little pathetic to move back into the house you grew up in like at the beginning of BND. In fact, I'd say it's actually more pathetic than if he'd never left for financial reasons, as in your example. Opinions will vary on that, but the point is that Peter Parker may be a young man, but he is still a man. His new potential love interest is a grown up woman with a real job. So while I can see your point, Tom, he still seems a little too mature to be the lovable screw up that he once was.

Now I'm not saying that it isn't an important part of his character. I'm not even saying that there's no value in trying to get back to that. It just seems like a very rough thing to try to get across to the audience at this point.

-CodeGuy

Posted by Jason M Bryant on 2008-01-23 17:08:32
The problem with any serial fiction, especially one that has lasted for decades, is that its audience will change. This is obvious when looking at the older icons such as Superman and Batman, who have gone through a number of personality shifts from era to era to appeal to a given generation. Whether they were portrayed as pulp heroes, propaganda tools, comedic relief, romantic leads, or grim avengers, every icon has changed to meet the standards of the times. There is an underlying consistency that endears readers to these characters and lends them their longevity. However, as you have pointed out, it can be difficult to find this core character trait amid the multiple shifts in paradigm.

It can be argued as to what is at the core of Spider-man. One may see youth, responsibility, humor, or any number of other traits as what defines him. That is the other issue that comic creators face. Each member of their audience views their hero in a different way and is entertained by different facets. To say that Spider-man is about youth is a fallacy. That implies that those who are endeared towards the character for other reasons don’t understand or appreciate him correctly. If Spider-man is about youth, and his marriage aged him and damaged that theme, then those fans that came to enjoy him since the wedding did so for the wrong reasons and are right in feeling alienated by the current change. By rewriting history, Marvel is saying that the Spider-man these people appreciated should never have happened, and they shouldn’t have been reading it. That may seem to be an unfair and extreme reaction, but its clear that there are many who have feelings along these lines.

It’s clear that another shift is occurring and that Spider-man is changing for a new audience. It’s understandable that Marvel would take the necessary steps to facilitate this change. Time will tell, however, as to whether this is the correct change. While new readers may identify with youth, its arguable as to whether that theme will attract them to Spider-man. When the character first debuted, there were no other young heroes. That’s changed. Largely due to the continued success of Spider-man, entertainment media is inundated with tales of adolescent protagonists. By regressing, Spider-man has been placed in competition with his own legacy. Unfortunately, without completely relaunching the character, he will always be older then his competitors, and will not be able to match the interest they garner.

I don’t believe youth is a theme that a serial character can long maintain. Nor, do I believe it is one they can reclaim. To remain viable to a changing audience a new theme has to be applied and continued. Personally, the core aspect that always appealed to me about Spider-man was that he was an outcast, both as Peter Parker and as a super-hero. While that has always been maintained as Spider-man, even with his membership in the Avengers, that was lost somewhere in Peter Parker. I had hoped that One More Day and Brand New day would bring that back. Unfortunately, I haven’t seen it.

I appreciate the need for change. I was prepared to accept it. However, I have found nothing entertaining in Spider-man for several months. I guess I’m no longer the correct audience.


Posted by y4uriteme on 2008-01-23 17:18:40
I have an idea.
first, interesting points you made there in a few of your responses Tom.

I have always viewed "Marvel time" by thinking of each issue taking place over the course of one day per issue. This way 56 issues pass before you age one year. I don't know if that is the most accurate understanding of Marvel time, but it would allow for the character to progress at a pace that doesn't move him too quickly beyond that sweet spot that you want to maintain.

I am curious as to what JMS thoughts on the whole thing are, since he was basically tasked with writing the story that does away with everything that he added to the character over the last few years.
I didn't always like the stories, but it must have felt like a big wet slap to the face to him.

A point i would also like to mention, is that kids raised by older people like Grandparents or older aunts and uncles, tend to spend more time around older people than those that are their own age. They tend to relate better to them than people their own age. Not only is this a proven fact, but considering i spent eight years being raised by my Grandparents, and my Mother was very strict and most of my time was spent around older people, i can say that it is definitely true that people in those situations generally turn out to be more mature than their age.

Now i said i had an idea.

Marvel wants to draw in new readers so that comics continue to be around for generations right? Well why doesn't Marvel lead the charge when the new Spidey cartoon hits Saturday morning and put in advertisements where the kids featured in the commercial segments point out that kids that are interested can see more of the wall crawlers adventures in the monthly comic books, and provide that number that tells where local comic shops are located.
The kids could have some spider-Man comics that they show during those segments, and maybe they could even focus on the ones that appeal to the various age groups. Like Marvel Adventures, or Ultimate, or any of them for that matter.
This might be a good idea that will not only get you some crossover traffic from the cartoons, but maybe even promote comics as a gateway into the world of reading.
the distinguished Competition has yet to even try this.

Toy companies however have been doing exactly this for decades.

Anyway, that is my idea. don't worry i won't come to collect any consulting fee's. ;)


Posted by BIGW1966 on 2008-01-23 17:45:18
SM is about Growing up?
SM is about "growing up"? what? says who?
Though it is true that Peter has grown up from a teenager to a young man in the pages of SM, that doesn't make the SM comics ABOUT growing up. There are plenty of stories/characters where the focus is about "growing up" and I don't consider SM to be one of those. First and foremost SM is about Peter Parker the person and Spider-man the superhero. There has been no evidence that his AGE in particular was relevant. As long as you offered compelling stories about Peter the person (regardless of his age) and exciting stories about Spider-man the superhero you were fine.
Though It can and has been argued that SM's age made him relateable to his readers, it is also true that this only accounted for a small percentage of his fans. As I'm sure you know, the ages of SM readers/fans varies from 60 to 10. So his age obviously didn't relate to ALL of his readers.
The problem is that when you make the focus about "growing up" you take too much away from both Peter and Spider-man. In trying to make SM young you've made him into an incompetent, not highly intelligent, not respected, weak minded, easily impressed, NOOB.
which do you think comic readers would enjoy most? A young adult SM who is highly respected by his peers, who is a great fighter, one of the best and most determined heroes of the MU but who also deals with human issues/problems? or a young but idiotic and pathetic SM?
Get it straight, You've made him pathetic.
THAT is what is turning people off about him. NOT his age or marrital status.
His "youth" or his growing up has never been what made SM special. What made him special was his character.

I have a question. Why is it that in the marvel BIO section you have Spider-man (who is more 20 times stronger and at least 10 times faster than Wolverine) as a lower power level in terms of strength, intelligence, and speed than Wolverine?
Do you people hate Spider-man so much that you overlook the facts about him just to put him down. When will you get that whereas Hulk is 10 times Stronger than SM, SM is more than 40 times stronger than the likes of DD?

What SM needs, isn't some gimmick, a retconn which ignores 20 plus years of his history, new costume, new powers, or any other crap. What he needs is a creative that understands, knows him intimately, respects him and frankly loves him.
you people have ruined the character.

Posted by horatiorome on 2008-01-23 18:34:04
Consequences
The problem that I personal have with the OMD arc isn't Peter making a deal with Mephisto, or even the fact that 20 years of comic history has been flushed completely. My problem is in the fact that the story is so full of holes, continuity-wise, and we were provided virtually no explanation of the broad spectrum consequences that the arc had on the Marvel U.
For example, Spider-Man's membership with the New Avengers is now awkward, because apparently no longer know who he is. How do the writers of New Avengers deal with that? What does it do to the story? These are things the fans don't know.
Also, the web-shooters bit from the "Status Quo" page is questionable at best. Does this mean that "The Other" didn't happen? How have Peter's powers been effected, and most importantly, WHY have they been affected in that way.
So you see, it's all well and good to give a ship a pretty new paint job, but if the hull is full of holes... one way or another, it's going to sink.


Posted by CenturyChild533 on 2008-01-23 18:49:46
Where to draw the line
So where will it be? Wolverine becomes young teenager, having issues coming to terms with why his claws keep popping out? mr fantastic realise he'd be so much cooler single and 10 years younger....and and lets ditch the kid. I'm Sure Mephisto's magic can remove any annoying memories of franklin being born, since we dont need a bad image of him ditching his kid on the news. And let me ask this, all these new fans you are going to attract so that us long time loyal readers will still be able to buy comics in 5, 10 or 15 years..how are you going to do this by loosing all the respect of all your current customers...or infairness large portion. You guys sitting around the board room want this so bad, have 1 monthly where he said yes, and 1 where he tells him to stick his deal. No question you'll probably sell both, and now both sides win! Or prepare to eat crow in a few years when this issue keeps coming back to bite u!

Posted by DS2008 on 2008-01-23 19:15:17
Ultimate Vs Core
In your response to one of the complaints you say that since Ultimate is about youth and growing up, it does not justify not doing stories about the same idea and concept in the core book. I think thats "rubbish", because frankly I do not think most people suddenly agree that Spider-man is about youth because you said so.

You keep going back to Batman and his concept, but guess what, the core Batmen has been aloud to grow and adpot new Robins and they have grown. This shows Batman to be a seasoned and respected character. You went backwards with Spider-man.

Three times a month Amazing Spider-man is like a dream come true, I wish I could get past the current pathetic Spider-man who we all apparently wanted to watch grow up (again).


Posted by jefseg77 on 2008-01-23 20:05:48
I'm not sure One More Day was the best solution to reach the objective, but I agree with your opinions on Spider-Man Tom. Sounds like you've nailed it. The relaunch is looking great.

Posted by LewStringer on 2008-01-23 20:29:24
You are wrong Tom. I know you have your job and have kept it for a reason, but you have no idea what you are talking about. I know you have been reading Spidey as long as most of us, and in some cases longer, but you obviously don't know this character. Tom since everyone thinks that Spider-Man is about responsibility, age him like normal and kill Peter Parker. That is what people want. If he is dead, it's OK as long as he is responsible when he dies. Then you can bring in a new Spider-Man every 50-60 years after you kill the previous one. They will all be married have kids and age like us. After all, Peter is our character, no future generation should experience what we did when we were younger. That sounds about as riduculous as some of the arguments here. Every hero is about responsibility, otherwise they wouldn't be heroes. The themes of why they are the way they are is what the book is about. Cap was about a man out of time, X-Men is about prejudice. Central themes to characters that should not be strayed to far from. Spider-Man has been off the path for a while, and they are trying to get him back on track.

Posted by ZacGoyette on 2008-01-23 20:41:31
We wuz robbed
It seems that for all the spidey stories that have come down over the last 15 years or so, whether they be good, bad, whatever nothing upsets spidey fans as much as messing with the continuity of the character. It seems that lessons that should have been learned during the clone saga are being ignored. Its just, as silly as it may sound about a fictional character in a comic book, that we feel as though we've been robbed. Kraven's last hunt, did that really happen? Harry's back from the dead, is Norman still around? All the character growth, all the tough decisions that have been made by Peter, all the very good (sometimes hit or miss) exploration made by a writer like JMS wiped away in 4 issues by a decision that seemed very out of place by both the characters of Pete and MJ. With that being said the setup for the new stories seems exciting and fortunately for the head honchos at Marvel the character of Peter Parker will endure just as he always has.

Posted by Jaz001 on 2008-01-23 21:05:54
I don't agree
I would rather read Married Peter and Mary Jane stories than a single Spiderman. That being said...if any marriage should have been broken up it would be Reed Richards and Sue Richards. And Reed has not been the model husband. Oh well.

Posted by boundingwolf on 2008-01-23 23:19:05
BRAND NEW DAY
HI
Ive been a spidey fan for a long time. Recently rereading back issues and im still upset with the death of gwen. I feel like the book lost something when she died. With that being said over 400 issues later im still reading the the comic called "the Amazing Spiderman" not The Amazing Gwen Stacy" you wanna know why. Plain and simple i love the charcter Peter Parker/Spiderman. Everyone i know likes Spiderman. The same people i know picked up OMD and then complained. They havent ready over 40 years of the title. they dont know all the ins and out of all the charcters. they dont know all the mistakes the titles made throughout its histories change of writers. They just wanted to see aunt may die. They were also all so upset with the marriage ending, but where were these people when mj and peter were seperated years back. I understand everone wants continunity and growth of a character in storyline, but its been broken so many times its doesnt really matter. Honestly where would spiderman go if aunt may died? how long could he run from the law with his identity been known. Revealing his identity was a big mistake. It was cool to see happen,but now thats all gone. Who liked Jms years on the book? I didnt. I didnt like loosing the web shooters and "the other" story line ,but i stuck through it and adapted. I adapted because Spiderman/Peter Parker attitude was still the same. Without webshooters identity be known and even though in finding out good old gwen was nothing but a s#$t. Im glad brand new day erases all this. I also just finished reading amazing 548. It was fun. Thats all these things are supposed to be. Give it a try for all of you who havent. By the time issue 600 rolls around mj will probably be back in Peter parkers life again.

Posted by SPIDERMANBND123 on 2008-01-24 01:54:58
hard core
Spiderman is not about youth..
even not about abstinence...?

Posted by notapotatoe on 2008-01-24 02:13:39
Tom the reason you are having so much trouble winning these arguments, is because you are defending a decision with reasons after the fact. You probably should have thought up the reason for OMD (getting rid of the last 20 years and the wife) before doing one more day. Now your arguments really hold no value.

Posted by jjcomicfan on 2008-01-24 06:00:25
Creative Writing
It’s not impossible to write dramatic stories under the hard “illusion of change” policy that Marvel Editorial apparently plans to use for Spider-Man stories, but such stories will practically always consist of temporary changes to Parker’s condition, or dramatic events that the supporting cast or new characters are swept up in. After a while, readers will realize that any significant change that Parker appears to undergo will be as illusory as his romances. If a writer repeatedly relies on the supporting cast and new characters for drama in stories, then Parker becomes a mere observer of events, when he’s supposed to be the star.

The apparent importance of Aunt May in the series is a strong sign of just how formulaic future stories are going to be. A formula fiction writer would find her a convenient source of angst for Parker, but a creative writer would find her to be an obstacle to change, and nothing more than that. I’d expect that a writer who wanted to get inside Parker’s head would quickly have Aunt May die, tragically or naturally, and have Parker deal with the emotional consequences. A writer might have had the death seriously disrupt Parker’s marriage, accomplishing what Quesada, et al., wanted while posing no plotting problems at all. It’s just a matter of being familiar with mainstream fiction and getting into characters’ heads.

It’s interesting to see how heavily Roy Thomas used SF as plot material for his AVENGERS stories. Ultron, the origin of the Vision, the Kree-Skrull War, Rick Jones’s innate power, Harlan Ellison as a guest writer, etc.--SF was clearly a major influence on that title and continued in Englehart’s stories (the “Celestial Madonna” storyline was SF with superhero characters). If the relationship to SF had continued in AVENGERS and been extended to other titles, then the stories about Marvel’s heroes might have become a type of SF and been as well respected among readers and writers generally as SF novels are.

SRS


Posted by Steven R. Stahl on 2008-01-24 09:41:29
I'm Having a Hard Time Keeping This Straight
I just got done reading and posting the other blog entry, expressing my confusion about the quick shift from Quesada's statement that Spidey was "about soap opera" to Tom's assertion that he was "about youth." Now he's apparently "about growing up." I guess just so long as we are all clear that he's not about responsibility...

Posted by theazor on 2008-01-24 09:59:15
Geez
Obviously I've been reading these blog responses too much. I can already pick out SRS's and notapotatoe's responses from the first sentence.

I'm not sure if it says more about me, or them.

Posted by PseudoSherlock on 2008-01-24 12:14:30
Robbed and disillusioned
I guess no matter what happens Joe Q will still treat readers like they were something he stood in.

Ive re-read OMD and BND and it still sucks. Ive come to the conclusion ive wasted thousands of pound buying spiderman comics only to see a character ive grown up with turn into the biggest pile of crap ever. DC must be counting the cash from new readers.

As for attracting new Spiderman readers I cant recall any kids ever being in the comic stores ive bought from (and their smack bang in the middle of London. You cant get busier) . Ive not seen these so called new readers buying Spidey or any other comic Dc or Marvel. I even asked the store managers they all say all Joe Q has done is reduce the number of Marvel/Spiderman readers. OMD and BND has alienated most die hard fans who have seen it been there and done it. If you were going to create a new group of fans do it with a NEW Spidey comic you dont screw with the ingredients once things are ticking along nicely.

No matter how much you try and explain the dumest decision youve ever made dont expect fans to believe it.

THE mess youve created makes Spidey look like a manic depressive loser. Yeah he had probs but the Spidey charcater youre now portraying SUCKS.

What kind of role model is that ?? Hey wanna be a loser? Spidey was a character i looked up to as a kid growing up. He always triumphed. This Spidey is a jerk he just oozes im a loser.

Top and Bottom of it all is I feel like Ive been ripped off bigtime.

OMD and BND stink their crap stories written around a now poor 2nd rate spidey. The storyline and its explanation of events are disgusting. You can justify it however you like but me IM SELLING MY WHOLE DAMN COLLECTION.

THANKS FOR 30 wasted years. Hell if i knew A jerk Like Joe Q was gonna be running the show and screwing things up like this just cos of his ego Id have put the money in the bank and used it to pay towards a Porcshe.

BUT I guess i wont be the last to ditch Marvel thanks to Joe Q and his ego. I just wonder how much the Marvel Board of directors get to hear about the fans reaction ? or if they even care.

Role on the day when Joe Q and his editiorial team who thought of this rubbish get the boot> Maybe then the Status Quo your babbling on about will be returned to the pre OMD.

Heres wishfull thinking

One disgruntled Ex-Spidey Fan

Posted by guardian1791 on 2008-01-24 14:57:42
Just curious
heres is a question i like to ask please answer if you like

if peter over the next 6 months gets haunted by the deal he made with Mephisto and goes to dr stange or someone to help him find Mephisto so he can challenge him to end the deal and of course spidey wins and everthing goes back to seconds before the end of omd would everyone be happy?


are you guys more upset with the ending of the marriage or the fact that harrys back?

Posted by SPIDERMANBND123 on 2008-01-24 16:20:45
Spider Joke
Tom and whoever can try to justify this mess all they want,but it isnt possible and will not be accepted.I have been reading spiderman for 20+ years and am disgusted.Spiderman,the gutless wonder and many other colorful names is what I call him now.I see Joe The Idiot Quesada is coming to Megacon in Orlando.He might want to rethink that one lol,he isnt too popular down here.

We have been reverted back to the 70s,theres no other way to say it.This is an alternate reality.I will not accept it as anything else.The thing Queersada and the rest need to realize and we as fans need to stand against is this..... You cannot renig/retcon on just part of something.They cant have their cake and eat it too.Spiderman has been linked with all of the Marvel Universe in one form or another for his entire existence nearly.So if his history has been affected,then the histories of the people he has come into contact with since the marriage have had theirs affected also.So lets see,now that the marriage "doesnt exist",what else has been affected...

a)the clone saga didnt occur(a mercy killing)
b)kraven didnt commit suicide and is still around somewhere
c)venom and carnage cant exist(thank god)
d)the civil war didnt occur since the world knows parkers identity(the story was a joke anyway)
e)many others but I have given the bullpen of bullcrap plenty of work to do anyway since they have ALOT of rewriting to do.

They should also take Spiderman out of the Avengers.He isnt worthy to be on such a team.A "hero" that commits "crimes against manhood",makes deals with the devil,basically leaves his wife behind for his geritol aunt doesnt belong among such heroes.He is a classic example of what NOT to become and he teaches us that "with great power comes great stupidity and immaturity".

They are unfortunately making 3 Spiderman titles a month but look out,the money hogs will have different spider titles on the racks again in the future at some point.They prove to us that greed and ignorance do work hand in hand sometimes so dont let them fool you.

What it comes down to is this....

To the idiot in chief and the others writing this crap,like my friend David has posted on here...Im sick of the crap and in your face.If you mess up,Ill be there.We as fans need to teach you that YES,WE the fans and readers are in control here,not they themselves.We control and dictate the material they produce.Quesadas attitude sucks and it comes out in his books.The idiot...if Brand New/Same Old crap is a success,hell be crowing.If it flops,he'll be looking on who to place the blame.He like his newest "creation"(Spiderman) is gutless.Because of this fool,we as fans have wasted our time and money collecting the book for the last 20 years.I hope youre as mad as I am.

The question is...Do I collect the book any farther to

a)heckle the idiot in chief
b)dissect every issue
c)use the issues for when my family runs out of charmin
d)all of the above

If they delete this,Ill just repost it again.

Posted by courtney_miami08 on 2008-01-24 17:10:55
Issue 546
A TOTAL waste of paper and money.The splash page was a spit in the face.Spidermans been gone for months(I wish he had stayed gone).May tells Peter to "get a job"(and a life).She also told him "youre not a teen anymore"(Is this the same little boy who left his wife???)Peters dialogue comes across as a total loser(which he is).The "old Parker luck" is brought up(havent we heart this crap for years now?What a broken record!)

Jameson asked the question "How much does loyalty go for these days?"(Someone should ask Queersada and Marvel that question concerning their fans)The "explanation page" was a joke.You cannot erase/change a characters history in a 2 page spread.Not happening.They mentioned the "creative teams" love lifves(like that really exists).Webshooters again? Not happening.Harry back from the dead and not remembering his Goblin stint? I dont think so and besides its a good thing that that thing with Norman and the TBolts "didnt happen".May is back in her old house she had(thank god for that extreme home makeover show I guess).

They informed us to "not look back,look forward"(hard to do after 20 years of reading something).They referred to their competition as the "non letter column competitors" and "disposable comics".That doesnt say much for the bullpen of bullcrap in the house of idiots at the Moron Comic Group.They call themselves the "spidey brain trust"...total contradiction of terms.

Like I said,an alternate reality.
Nuff said

Posted by courtney_miami08 on 2008-01-24 17:25:07
Issue 547
Diving farther into ignorance here.The splash page showed us which way Parker "swings".I know he was trying to help Jameson but did he have to look like he was enjoying it?Hmmm,maybe a sign of Quesadas true nature."Spider mugger"???? How lame and useless."Mr Negative"???? Get outta here.Menace??ANOTHER Goblin type character readers must endure.The "coffee bean" is back but what is that exactly??..."Losers are us"?

What about Harrys idea... "A nice comforting cup of decaffeintaed joe?"Can anyone say juvenile and people are rying to say that this story is not about growing up.Rest easy people,that wont be happening.Lastly,the demon masked stooges...real briliiant guys.Didnt they rip that off of the no mans land storyline of a book that ACTUALLY matters????

Posted by courtney_miami08 on 2008-01-24 17:31:38
5 Reasons NOT to buy Brand New Day
1)Lame
2)Impossible Stiory
3)Alternate Reality
4)Waste of money
5)Self Respect

Posted by courtney_miami08 on 2008-01-24 17:33:42
If marvel was gonna end the marriage
They should have ended it with the best story in the world. We did not get the best story in the world. We got a mess. Seriously, you editors at Marvel want us to care about relationships that will never go anywhere. Why waste the readers time? You want to put Aunt May in danger when she can never die. Why waste the reader's time? I'm not buying BND and I could care less what happened in the past in this new reality. I seriously find it weird that that is being used as a selling point when I for one think it happened the best way the first time and I dont want to read a story on the same subject.

Posted by mre2u on 2008-01-24 18:17:46
"Second" attempt
Alright so I had written this whole long post about how basically I got really into Marvel and comic books again since the Civil War, and then lost interest in all books since OMD and BND. Since I don't feel like typing my heart felt post again (it had the word sullied in it, you really would have enjoyed it). I have decided to flag OMD, BND, and these blogs. At the bottom of all of our posts we have the option to flag it if we think it is offensive. Since we weren't given that option with the books or blog I am giving it to us now.

As a fan Marvel, I flag OMD, BND, and all PR attempts to defend them offensive.

Seconds?

Posted by Butchie88 on 2008-01-24 19:50:39
What can I say...
...that hasn't already been said by others?

All I know is:
From the Clone Saga to the ressurection of Norman Osborn, from Six-armed Spidey to Spider-Hulk, from the "Spider Armor" to the Iron Spider Suit, and from the Atari 2600 game to last year's movie, NOTHING that has happened to Spidey over the past few decades has disturbed me nearly as much as the complete drek that is OMD and BND.

Please Tom & Co, ask yourselves:
How many 21st century people have to tell you that they don't want a bumbling unmarried Spidey before you admit an error and hit undo?

PS: I'll second you, Butchie88.

Posted by chrisoconnell on 2008-01-25 03:19:18
Go BRAND NEW : Make Peter Bi or Gay.
So far BND felles very retro like 1977 retro. How about you really live by the series new catchphrase?

You decided to make Peter single again and living in New York.

Make him metro sexual. Have him have feelings for Harry.

Impossible choices are at the core of the character, right?

And Marvel is always claiming to be pioneering new concepts.

So REALLY go all the way and make Peter BI, GAY or whatever.

Imagine the possibilities!!!

Plus, I feel it kind of fits for Peter. What do you all think?

Posted by baxtos on 2008-01-25 04:31:51
Lack of care!
My problem with OMD was the complete lack of care or effort to create a good story around the retcon. He sells his marriage to the devil and *poof* his best friend is thrown in as a freebee??? But it didn't affect any of our other favorite stories... Whatever. I went back to read civil war and I threw it on the ground. A pivital moment in that book has been ruined. Thanks. It's hard for me to read and enjoy BND, because every time Harry and the so far useless girls show up, I'm slapped in the face with OMD.

Posted by vijinand on 2008-01-25 12:43:28
If marvel was gonna end the marriage
They should have ended it with the best story in the world. We did not get the best story in the world. We got a mess. Seriously, you editors at Marvel want us to care about relationships that will never go anywhere. Why waste the readers time? You want to put Aunt May in danger when she can never die. Why waste the reader's time? I'm not buying BND and I could care less what happened in the past in this new reality. I seriously find it weird that that is being used as a selling point when I for one think it happened the best way the first time and I dont want to read a story on the same subject.

Posted by mre2u on 2008-01-25 16:02:24
SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN
OK FIRST OFF IF SOMEONE COULD RESPOND TO THIS I WOULD APPRECIATE IT

I DONT UNDERTAND WHATS THE BIG DEAL IS

1)THE MARRIAGE IS ENDED FOR NOW(WE ALL KNOW MJ WILL BE BACK IN SOME SHAPE OF FORM. DONT WE REALIZE THIS?

2) HARRYS BACK (THE GREEN GOBLIN WILL BACK RIGHT) (IF NOT HIM THEN HIS DAD) (ITS ABOUT TIME ITS LIKE BATMAN WITHOUT THE JOKER)

3) THE WHOLE CIVIL WAR DEBACLE IS OVER( THATS A GOOD THING RIGHT?) (IT WAS COOL BUT THEN IT WAS UGHH WELL NUFF SAID

4) JMS 5 YEAR RUN IS POSSIBLY ERASED. (THAT MIGHT BE A GOOD THING AS WELL)WEB SHOOTERS AND IDENTITY ARE BACK

5) IF YOU READ BND ITS BASCIALLY SAYS THE BOOK IS A COUNTDOWN TO ISSUE 600(THIS STORY DOESNT HAVE LONGEVITY)


6) ANY ONE WHO SAYS THEY WONT RESPECT THEMSELVES IN THE MORNING IF THEY READ BND ARE ALL THE PEOPLE I SEE IN THE COMIC SHOPS FLIPPIN THROUGH ITS PAGES DYING TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS NEXT.


7) HOW DO WE KNOW IF THE SUBJUCTS ARE THE SAME THEIR ONLY 3 ISSUES IN. EVERYONE KNOWS MJ IS JACKPOT RIGHT? I WONDERWHAT OTHER NEW DEVLOPMENTS WILL BECOMING OUR WAY. WE WILL ONLY KNOW BY READING IT

8) NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS FROM NOW TO 5 YEARS FROM NOW. NO MATTER WHAT MISTAKE HAS BEEN MADE EVRTHING IN THE END GETS CORRECTED CHANGED OR INHANCED. WHY SHOULD THIS BE ANY DIFFRENT.




Posted by SPIDERMANBND123 on 2008-01-25 16:39:02
Re: SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN
I'll humor you SPIDERMANBND123... even though I suspect you're a Marvel intern.

1)THE MARRIAGE IS ENDED FOR NOW(WE ALL KNOW MJ WILL BE BACK IN SOME SHAPE OF FORM. DONT WE REALIZE THIS?

Many of us liked her fine in the shape and form she was in (sure go with the double meaning if you want). There was nothing wrong with MJ or the marriage and IMO, pound for pound, she did a much better job as Spidey's rock than Aunt May.

2) HARRYS BACK (THE GREEN GOBLIN WILL BACK RIGHT) (IF NOT HIM THEN HIS DAD) (ITS ABOUT TIME ITS LIKE BATMAN WITHOUT THE JOKER)

1st, who cares about Harry... he's Jughead with daddy issues. 2nd, don't EVER equate Spidey's hero-villain dynamics to that of Bats. That comparison is apples, oranges and completely unfair to anyone involved with telling either character's stories.

3) THE WHOLE CIVIL WAR DEBACLE IS OVER( THATS A GOOD THING RIGHT?) (IT WAS COOL BUT THEN IT WAS UGHH WELL NUFF SAID

What is the debacle? The unmasking? Peter putting his family in danger twice? Yeah, some of the most dramatic things to happen to Spidey since Uncle Ben’s death; do you honestly think that OMD and BND deals with them in a responsible and creative manner that respects to the characters?

4) JMS 5 YEAR RUN IS POSSIBLY ERASED. (THAT MIGHT BE A GOOD THING AS WELL)WEB SHOOTERS AND IDENTITY ARE BACK

How is the JMS run being erased a good thing? Granted, I hated the extra Osborns and the wrist stingers, but JMS contributed A LOT of value and character to Spidey's story. If anything, big-picture agendas like Civil War, OMD and BND did more to screw up the character than anything JMS did... did ANYTHING JMS ever do cause backlash comparable to BND, OMD or the unmasking?

5) IF YOU READ BND ITS BASCIALLY SAYS THE BOOK IS A COUNTDOWN TO ISSUE 600(THIS STORY DOESNT HAVE LONGEVITY)

Good, maybe someone like Dr. Strange will do something to quantum reality to prevent writers from ever using alternate timelines for cop-out retcons ever again… and seriously, on the topic of alternate universes/timelines: Every writer in comics, PLEASE STOP IT… just stop… please.

6) ANY ONE WHO SAYS THEY WONT RESPECT THEMSELVES IN THE MORNING IF THEY READ BND ARE ALL THE PEOPLE I SEE IN THE COMIC SHOPS FLIPPIN THROUGH ITS PAGES DYING TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS NEXT.

They're like me at my local Borders Express, reading but not actually buying the book until we see the Dynasty-like panel where Peter & MJ wake up from the bad dream.

7) HOW DO WE KNOW IF THE SUBJUCTS ARE THE SAME THEIR ONLY 3 ISSUES IN. EVERYONE KNOWS MJ IS JACKPOT RIGHT? I WONDERWHAT OTHER NEW DEVLOPMENTS WILL BECOMING OUR WAY. WE WILL ONLY KNOW BY READING IT

Yes, keep reading everyone, so we can risk getting even more frustrated by the butchering and twisting of back-story and character development. Gotta tell you, I’m loving this bumbling slacker version of Peter, and also love having no clue how Venom, the New Avengers, the Scarlet Spiders, and etc even exist in this dynamic. (Note to the stupid: That is sarcasm)

8) NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS FROM NOW TO 5 YEARS FROM NOW. NO MATTER WHAT MISTAKE HAS BEEN MADE EVRTHING IN THE END GETS CORRECTED CHANGED OR INHANCED. WHY SHOULD THIS BE ANY DIFFRENT.

I take it back, I don’t suspect you are an intern. Did you, by any chance, work in the subprime lending industry?


Posted by chrisoconnell on 2008-01-26 04:32:24
lol THANKS FOR HUMORING ME
HEY CHRISOCONNELL THANKS FOR HUMORING ME, HONESTLY YOU MAKE VALID POINTS BUT MY POINTS ARE VALID AS WELL. i DONT KNOW IF YOUR A HUGE MARVEL OR DC FAN.(maybe dc fan by the way you defending batman) I DONT KNOW IF YOUR FAVORITE CHARCTER IS SPIDERMAN,(probably not by the way your just ready to drop the book over a bad story) BUT IF YOUR UNHAPPY SELL YOUR SPIDERMAN COLLECTION. DONT BUY ANY MORE SPIDEYS AND DONT COLLECT THEM till you see mj back. To me mj isnt that important.I read the book for spidey not mj. Also Gwen is peters real love in case you forgot. Marrying mj is a 20 plus year mistake anyway as far as im concerned. Also i dont see the importance of a super hero being married anyway. if the marriage and harry are the only changes then big deal. IF aunt may died then spidey would have to deal with another death on his hands and that would kill the book.(his aunt may and uncle ben) Every story doesnt have to be a blockbuster. Jms wrote some good stories and some duds. the drama he created wether good or bad i still collected. to me comics just need to be entertaing enough to get the next book. To me with all the controversy on the amazing title lately its becoming really over done. I Guess in the end real spidey fans will continue to collect while others will just complain and complain feel offended and then complain some more. Oh yea by the way how much you selling your collection for? If you actually have a collection

Posted by SPIDERMANBND123 on 2008-01-26 20:57:20
Will Mommy and Daddy Please Stop Fighting?
In my opinion, Spider-Man is not about growing up. (And it's not about age or marriage either.) Spider-Man is about responsibility. Peter's sense of responsibility is what makes him a hero.

That said, the idea that people stop growing up when they get married is just ridiculous.

Either way, One More Day betrayed both aspects of the character: Peter made a deal with Mephisto to avoid responsibility for his aunt's death AND the effect was to undo all the growing up that he has done since the marriage.

I am going to read Spider-Man no matter what. I'm a big fan and I like where Brand New Day is going so far. One More Day was a train wreck but debating it at this point is just frustrating. I'd rather forget it happened... just like Peter did.

Posted by ramahughes on 2008-01-27 02:38:17
Should Spider-Man have ended decades ago?
"Stan figured that like every other publishing fad up till that time, super heroes were going to be a passing thing, and then they'd be back on the lookout for another hit genre to keep the business moving. So Stan at the outset had no compunctions against aging the characters, because he figured that at the most they'd be around for maybe five years, and it'd be on to the next thing."

I can't help but wonder if this is the problem, a story meant to last five years stretched to last over forty, and the tension between the goals of keeping longtime readers happy and attracting new readers to the same comics. You reach a place where keeping things static is a problem and "too much progress" is a problem, too. Readers are asked to let go of the characters and stories as they age, but is anything new presented to replace them? I agree that it's selfish of fans to expect the characters to grow with them, but does Marvel honestly publish more than five comics predominantly starring characters created in the last ten years?

What is Marvel's goal? That people read Spider-Man (for instance) forever? That they read it a certain number of years and then move onto more newer and more grown-up comics from Marvel, which only publishes a handful of either new or grownup comics? Surely it's not that they read Spider-Man for a few years and then move onto grownup comics from other publishers? Somewhere like Fantagraphics is a much more likely place to find something new or grownup, but it seems hard to believe that Marvel's policy could really be to move readers to other publishers once they're tired of Spider-Man.

I worry that the big companies' habit of keeping the same books in serialization for decades and conditioning fans to stay with those books makes it hard for even those same companies to launch new characters and stories that aren't directly or indirectly connected to those older characters and stories. And if those new characters can't take off, what do people do, if they want to continue reading Marvel superheroes, but stay with Spider-Man? And if they stay with Spider-Man, how long will they be satisfied with a status quo that can't change much?

I'm not sure what the answer is. Attracting young readers and replacing the people who leave every four years sounds good, but if anyone at any company can figure out how get the kids back in droves, they deserve a big raise and maybe a parade at Comicon.

Posted by BrendanHW on 2008-01-27 03:02:41
Typo
In my second to last paragraph, that should say, "And if those new characters can't take off, what do people do, if they want to continue reading Marvel superheroes, but MOVE ON FROM Spider-Man?"

The short version of the whole thing: It seems problematic to either expect people to stay forever with a serial that can't truly conclude, or to eventually move on from that serial with nothing new offered by the company to replace it.

Posted by BrendanHW on 2008-01-27 03:07:35
creativity
Today I finally got to read Spidey 545 and I'm glad to see that there are other people who feel the same way I do about it. Retconning things over and over and over has gotten incredibly old and uncreative. I don't care how many times people say "oh.. its harder to write Spiderman while he's married". My answer to that is "so what". If people can't handle the "difficulty", fire them. Is it better to have writers who don't feel up to the task and fans so disgusted that they quit reading the titles or is it better to hire some folks who can do the job and for you guys to make gobs of money at it? Do Stephen King or Orson Scott Card have problems writing about characters who have vulnerable spots? No.

For that matter, why does Marvel feel they have to keep Parker young? Make newer characters who are young and bring them into the category of "flagship characters". Spidergirl is a perfect young girl comic. Promote her to death, make her interesting and heck, make Spidergirl pillowcases. You can do the same thing with some of the younger mutants too. You don't have to rely on the same characters for the same audiences. People will mature and its ok if "their" comics mature with them. This isn't a bad thing. It builds affection and loyalty towards that title, from that group. 30 years down the road, a mature Spidergirl might have the same type of following that Spiderman does today.

In the early days Stan Lee had it right with the plethora of different types of characters he brought in. He would bring in new characters and if they stuck, great. If they didn't, he would move on. Heck, he even made a flagship character out of one that was based off of Frankenstein's monster, for crying out-loud (the Hulk). That is creativity. He didn't sit back and say "ok.. how long can we milk Captain America?". He, Ditko and Kirby came up with creative characters that made Marvel a hallmark name across the country. The current Marvel management needs to learn from this example.

Start looking forward. Quit trying to rewrite things so that it's more "convenient" for you. That's a DC trick :P Also, quit trying to shock us into buying more stuff. Jeez. If you write decent stories, employ decent artists, introduce interesting new characters and respect the dedication your predecessors put into comics, we'll buy your books.

And for the record, whomever said that MJ was much more of a rock to Peter than May ever was, was completely right. It's sad to see all that depth swept away for the sake of "easier writing".


Posted by dutchb on 2008-01-27 15:37:01
Worry for the new spidey.
I’ve come late to this discussion, partly because I needed time to mull things over. After reading OMD (as much of it as I could stand) and the first few issues of BND I am left mourning the loss of “my” spider-man. I’ve followed spider-man since the (very early eighties) and as near as I can tell, every spider-man story I ever read just got shunted off into some loss alternate reality.
This doesn’t mean that there won’t continue to be good spider-man stories. But the spider-man character in them will not be the same one that I knew and loved. In the same way the USM or the Marvel Age version that I sometimes pick-up for my kids is not “my” spider-man, neither will this new incarnation be. So I mourn the loss of an old favorite.
Once I get over it I may decide to start following this new spider-man. I certainly enjoy USM. That title doesn’t suffer at all for having a different version of spidey. One thing that really has me doubting the possibility though is summed up the a quote of Karl Kesel’s posted in the blog on youth. “Because by the very concept of the character, his life should be constantly frustrating and difficult and happiness should ALWAYS seem to be just beyond his grasp.” A character whose whole life is frustration and misery is just excruciating to read. The reason the married spider-man worked for me is exactly the same reasons Mr. Kesel argues against it.
As an older reader, I sure that I am not the target audience, but that whole alienation theme gets really old really quickly. Unless you want this title to become one that only depressed 13-16 year olds can stand to read please give this new spidey some kind of social support network. It makes the contrast with the danger and heartbreak so much sharper.



Posted by digel on 2008-01-28 13:25:01
What???
Tom, It just seems to me, that all the "explaining" comming from Marvel boils down to....
"We said so, now shut up and buy our books."
I for one do not like that attitued. The more Marvel explains the changes in spider man, the more it sounds like over rationalization. If OMD/BND needs that much smoothing, its just a bad idea.

On a side note, how in the hell can Peter chose that decrepid old bag over his wife. It just seems,,,,wrong.

Posted by snafo102 on 2008-01-28 20:43:33
AUNT MAY VS MJ
YOU KNOW ITS FUNNY LETTERS PAGES OF SPIDERMAN DATING BACK TO THE EARLY NUMBERS IN THE RUN WAY BACK IN THE 60S FANS HAVE WANTED TO SEE AUNT MAY DEAD. IT NEVER HAPPEND EVEN THOUGH THERE WAS SOME CLOSE CALLS, BUT WHO WOULD HAVE BELIEVED GWEN AND A BUNCH OF OTHER CHARACTERS WOULD HAVE DIED FIRST. IT WOULD SEEM LOGICAL THAT AUNT MAY BEING SO FRAIL AND OLD WOULD NOT OUT LAST SO MANY OTHER CHARCTERS. IT IS REALLY SHOCKING IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT ESPECIALLY IF YOU BASE COMICS ON THE LOGIC OF THIS WORLD, BUT IN COMICS I GUESS LOGIC IS DIFFRENT, BUT THEN MAYBE NOT BECAUSE FOR THOSE WHO HAVE READ OVER 400 ISSUES OF AMAZING WOULD SEE THE PETER/SPIDERMANS INNER STRENGTH MAINLY COMES FROM AUNT MAY. NOT TO SAY MJ NEVER GAVE HIM STRENGTH, BUT THE HEART OF SPIDERMANS STRENGTH COMES FROM AUNT MAY. IS IT MOSTLY GUILT? PROBABLY, BUT NEVER THE LESS SHE IS THE MAIN ROOT OF HIS POWER BEHIND THE RADIOACTIVE SPIDER. SO FOR THOSE WHO CAN’T UNDERSTAND WHY HE WOULD CHOSE AUNT MAY OVER MJ TO ME IS A SIMPLE LOGICAL ANSWER FOR COMICS AND THIS WORLD. AUNT MAY IS BASICALLY PETERS MOM. WHO WOULD KILL THEIR MOM IF THEY COULD MAKE THINGS GOOD AGAIN? MJ ALSO HELPED IN MAKING THAT DECESION AS WELL. ALSO ITS KEY TO NOTE HAVEING AUNT MAY AROUND IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE IN ORDER FOR PETER PARKERS LIFE AND SPIDERMANS LIFE TO SEEM MAGNIFIED WITH HUGE PROBLEMS YOU NEED A WEAK LINK TO PROTECT AND BE THEIR FOR AND THATS AUNT MAY, BUT FROM PETERS PERSPECTIVE. AS A READER YOU KNOW AUNT MAY IS JUST AS STRONG WILLED AS SPIDERMAN IS.

I WILL SAY THIS. ITS A SHAME THAT IN BACK IN BLACK THEY HAD US GOING ABOUT AUNT MAY BEING ON THE VERGE OF DEATH TO THEN IN OMD GOING ON JOURNEY TO FIND SOMEONE TO SAVE HER LIFE. TO THEN FINDING SOMEONE JUST TO MAKE A TRADE. LIFE FOR LOVE, BUT IN A WAY I GUESS IT WAS LOVE FOR LOVE. I THINK ITS COOL THAT PETER AND MJ MADE A DEAL WITH DEVIL SO THEIR HUMAN CHARCTERSTICS COULD SHOW THROUGH. WOULD STAN LEE BE PROUND KNOWING THAT 1 OF HIS MAJOR CHARCTERS THAT HE GAVE REAL HUMAN PROBLEMS TO ALONG WITH HIS WIFE MADE A DEAL WITH DEVIL? WHO KNOWS, AS READER IT MAKE THINGS INTERESTING. I ALSO THINK IT WAS FITTING BECAUSE IN BACK IN BLACK DIDNT SPIDERMAN MEET GOD. SO ITS CRAZY EITHER WAY. IM JUST GLAD AUNT MAY ISNT DEAD, BUT IF SHE DID DIE FOR REAL IM CURIOUS HOW THAT WOULD ACTUALLY PLAY OUT IN THE YEARS TO COME AS WELL AS SEEING WHAT WOULD SPIDERMAN DO WITH HIS IDENTITY BEING REAVEALED AND HOW WOULD HE LIVE ALWAYS BEING ON THE RUN. I GUESS WE WILL NEVER KNOW, BUT THAT STRESS ALONE COULD OF HAD PETE AND MJ SEPERATED IF ENDING THE MARRIAGE IS WHAT THEY MARVEL REALLY WANTED. I GUESS WITH ALL THE DRASTIC CHANGES GOING ON AT MARVEL I KNEW SOMTHING LIKE THIS WAS GOING TO HAPPEN, BUT THOUGHT IT WOULD ALL HAVE IN HAPPENED IN WWH IF THE HULK ALMOST DESTROYED THE WORLD AND A BUNCH OF PEOPLE BY ACCIDENT DIED IN A TRAGIC WAY THAT AVENGERS ILLUMINATI WHO HAVE THE INFINITY GAUNTLET WOULD HAVE ERASED EVERTHING, BUT I GUESSS IM WRONG MAYBE IN THE SECRET INVASION THAT WILL BE THE CASE.

SO NOW I UNDERDSTAND A LITTLE BETTER WHY PEOPLE THINK THIS IS ALL JUST BAD WRITING AND EVERYONES JUST PISSED THAT THEY DIDNT NEED TO GET ON THE SPIDERMANS ROLLERCOASTER OF EMOTIONS FROM SPIDERMANS IDENTY BEING REVEALED JUST SO AUNT MAY COULD BE ON THE VERGE OF DEATH TO FIND OUT ALL OF THIS HAD THE INTENTION OF ENDING WITH PETER AND MJ MARRIAGE BEING TAKEN AWAY. WHAT I DON’T UNDERSTAND IS BECAUSE OF 1 BAD STORY LINE PEOPLE ARE READY TO DROP THE BOOK AND NOT EVEN SEE WHERE IT GOES. LOOK ON THE INTERNET YOU WILL SEE PEOPLE FREAKING OUT OVER THIS. MAYBE I CAN UNDERSTAND FOR THE CASUAL SPIDERMAN FAN BEING LIKE THIS WHO READS OTHER THINGS, BUT REAL DIE HEARTS TO NOT EVEN GIVE THE BOOK A CHANCE IS CRAZY. NEVER THE LESS I LIKE BND AND SPIDERMAN AND IM SURE AROUND ISSUE 600 EVERTHING WILL BE BACK TO NORMAL. I ALSO WANNA SEE HOW THEY GET THERE. IF THINGS DONT STRAIGHTEN OUT AS LONG AS SPIDERMAN IS FUN TO READ ILL BE THERE.


Posted by SPIDERMANBND123 on 2008-01-29 02:46:58
more spidey
You shouild respect the reader,it´s not spidey just a caricature of hinself.A teen peter could it be Final crissis in marvel u.Great move; why not make Mephisto erase every heroes life,a super summer event.

Posted by claudio pahl on 2008-01-29 07:32:47
marriages never grow
Nor do those who enter into them, apparently.

Really... this is just bollocks and I am surprised there is so much energy going into defending it (and in a rather myopic way).

Posted by Original_Fan4Fan on 2008-01-29 13:06:09
One question
Does the Peter Parker of the 70s (IE ASM and PP Spect. SM) match the Peter Parker in the current BND storyline? Based on what I am reading here, the answer is no. He now appears to be lazy, lecherous, irresponsible and stupid, something I know he wasn't in the 70s. If that is the case count me out.

Posted by koltsrule45 on 2008-01-29 20:37:52
This and that
I believe im may be the only one defending the book and i will continue to till the book becomes boring for a considerable amount of time where the charcter doesnt even look spiderman. I think im defending the book in as way thats still objective to all of your feelings. by saying you think im defending the book in a myopic way is just saying to me that because of 1 bad storyline your opinion may also be blurred by the potental the book still has.

For all the rumors that peter is a lazy, partying guy whos dating everyone and the mothers mother has got it all wrong. In the first bnd storyline peter found a new apartment. He has his job at bugle thats going under now that spiderman hasnt appeared in a while. The company has been sold out under JJJ by his wife. Spiderman saved a bunch of mobster's kids. The gang now owes Spiderman a favor. Its to early to tell what the deal is what time frame the book is,but a cabie made a refrence to spidey that he should become a registred hero. Its the same ol peter with the same parker luck that everyone enjoyed to read. with few returned gifts spidey was missing the last few years.They are also hinting about new villians and old ones as well. The thuderbolts are supposed to be appearing at some time and theirs alot more up in the air.

like i said in the begining that i may be the only one whos defending the book and maybe your right the writers had no right to change a few things around, but it give and take by taking back and giving back a few things. If your a spidey fan dont let a few disgruntled fans who act like they never read a bad spidey storyline before put a bad taste in your mouth.Im mean common spidey 3 times a month how bad can it be. its like that old saying with sex and pizza even when it bad its still good.


P.S. if any got one has any questions or topics that want to debate or talk about in a rational matter without trying to attack me ina kidish manner im all for it. i enjoy comming here every night to see what everyone thinks. take care

Posted by SPIDERMANBND123 on 2008-01-29 23:49:50
Back in the swing
I have to agree I mean I remember when spidey was dating betty brant, but I noticed this, spiey is growing up way too fastI mean he was fifteen while dating his bosses secratary! I do have to admit, the ending of one more day was well, kinf of corny, you have to think before you make a popular super-hero do a deal with the devil. I have to agree with wishlish that series had a lot of worrying to do with it, but breaking up with mary jane made me laugh very hard, I have to say

Posted by Heroclicker on 2008-02-24 13:01:35