Well said
Similarly, the fans who clamor for the return of Ben Riley, when the Clone Saga is routinely derided by so many other fans. For some people, Ben Riley is Spider-Man.

And Secret Wars 8 was my first Marvel Comic. Just goes to show.

Posted by samh23 on 2008-04-23 18:24:39
It's possible to be in both camps
I didn't really care for the extra powers that Spidey picked up in The Other or the ability to talk to bugs that he got before that. But I also wish they'd been used more.

See, I'm willing to accept something I don't like if it results in good stories. But some of these things were pushed aside just as quickly as they happened. It made them feel pointless.

Imagine if you wanted to buy a car. You just want a simple car for driving in the city, but your wife insists on something with four wheel drive because she wants to start going into the mountains for vacations. You argue a little bit, then accept it. After a couple of weeks you start looking forward to the mountain trip. It still isn't worth the extra money you paid for a big, 4 wheel drive car, but you've already got the car, so why not enjoy it.

On the first day of the vaction your wife tells you she hates the mountains and wants to go home and never go back.

Even if the dealership is willing to trade you the car for something better, as if it never happened, it's still going to feel like a pointless experience.

Posted by Jason M Bryant on 2008-04-23 18:55:11
Hey, I still have my action figure of the Civil War Spider-Armor. Now *that* was a nifty costume.

When's that coming back, Tom? Huh? Huh? :)

Posted by wishlish on 2008-04-23 18:59:35
I liked spidey w/ organic webs
It was cool, and at least he didn't complain about running outta webbing. What's even better was the fact that he had a cool suit of armor (will that ever make a return BTW?)

Posted by Aziroth on 2008-04-23 19:36:31
Other examples, and a possible explanation
It's obvious why you used Spider-Man as an example, because the One More Day changes were pretty recent. But Marvel has lots of characters (and teams) where the status quo has changed back and forth over the years.

Is Beast an X-Man or an Avenger? Or maybe a Defender? Should he be human, monkeylike or catlike? Blue or gray?

Should the Hulk be savage or intelligent? Green or gray? Or red?

Who is more of an Avenger? Hank Pym or Vision? How about Quicksilver? Moondragon? Deathcry? Firestar? Spider-Man?

Currently, Jean Grey has been dead for quite a few years now (unless she's Mutant Zero over at Avengers: The Initiative, but I doubt it). I think it's safe to say that for those of the X-Men readers that came in during the last five years, Emma Frost is the X-Men's main telepath. But to other generations, Jean will always be Phoenix. Or Marvel Girl. Or Jean Grey. Is there a "right" status quo for her? I don't think so.

Should Iron Man's identity be public or secret?

Or how about Wolverine? What's his "definitive" look? The classic blue and yellow version? The brown-and-tan look he's currently sporting in the pages of Wolverine: Origins? A cowboy-hat and an eyepatch? The current version introduced in Astonishing X-Men? Hugh Jackman in a black leather suit? Naked except for the Weapon X helmet? The Age of Apocalypse look with only one hand? I think it's safe to say that there is not one definitive look, there are several iconic styles he's had over the years.

By the way, who are the X-Men? Is there a definitive team lineup? Is it the team from #1? Cyclops, Angel, Iceman, Beast and Jean? Or is it Cyclops, Storm, Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Colossus and Kitty Pryde? And where does that leave Rogue? Jubilee? Gambit? Bishop? Emma Frost? Mystique?

It's the same thing over at the Competition. Who is THE Green Lantern? Hal Jordan? Kyle Rayner? John Stewart? Alan Scott? Guy Gardner? Ask five readers, and you will get five answers.

Now take a look at the Fantastic Four. Is there a definitive roster? Should it be just the Richards/Storm family plus Ben Grimm? Or is She-Hulk a classic member? How about Black Panther and Storm? Or maybe Wolverine, Spider-Man, Ghost Rider and Hulk? I think in this case, we'll all agree that the definitive roster is Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman, the Thing and the Human Torch. But why is that? Why do Fantastic Four writers always come back to this lineup, whereas the Hulk hasn't been an Avenger since #2?

I think most of us like characters to stay the way they were when we first read their stories (or saw the cartoons. Or movies). The same goes for writers and editors. So when we finally get the chance to control these characters, we're always tempted to revert the characters to the status they had when we first met them. Until it gets stale and we want to leave our mark. So we change a few details. A costume here. A team member there. Maybe give Superman electro-powers. Or put a new character inside the Iron Man armor.

Now we have three possible outcomes.

1.: The writer responsible for the change or one of his successors gets bored with the new status quo and changes it back to the old standard. Clint Barton changes from Goliath back to Hawkeye. Tony Stark becomes Iron Man again. Superman returns from the dead.
The interim status quo will soon be forgotten.

2.: Both the writer, his successor and the readers like the new status quo, and it becomes the new standard. Daredevil keeps his red costume instead of changing back to the red-and-yellow. Barry Allen stays dead. Songbird doesn't revert back to Screaming Mimi.
With enough time, the old status quo will be forgotten.

3.: The new status quo gets changed again. It is replaced by a completely differend status quo, a third standard. After Jason Todd's death, Batman gets a new Robin, not the old one back. Hank Pym changes from Giant Man to Yellowjacket, from Yellowjacket to no alias at all.

And now, a peculiar thing happens. A couple of years down the road, some writer will try to restore his favorite status quo. Suddenly, characters like Norman or Harry Osborn, Jean Grey or Hal Jordan return from the dead after years, in some cases even decades. Iron Man goes back to his 70s armor. And organic web-shooters disappear.
And again, one of three things happen. The new old status quo stays, shifts back to the one before or gets replaced by a third one.

And if this game continues for several generations of writers and readers. Wonder Man resurrections have become as much of a running gag as Magneto switching sides or Professor X leaving the X-Men forever.

It might take months, years or decades, but I'm sure that one day, Eddie Brock will be reunited with the Venom symbiote. Barry Allen will return from the dead, as will Steve Rogers. Guy Gardner will regain his Vuldarian powers. The Hulk will be green again.

But I'm not sure how much longer I will stay loyal to those retro-cycles. I want new ideas. New directions. And new characters. That's one of the reasons why I like Brand New Day. For every returning element from twenty years ago (marriage status, supporting cast members, mechanical web-shooters), we get three or four new ones (villains, potential love interests, the DB!, Jackpot). But when the Superhero Registration Act disappears and Peter Parker remarries Mary Jane, then perhaps it's time for me to move on. And in twenty years, when I'm writing the Spider-Man books, I'll bring back Ben Reilly as the one, true Spider-Man.





Kidding.

Posted by Michael Heide on 2008-04-23 20:40:20
Makes perfect sense
> Which comes as a bit of a shock, frankly, because the overwhelming majority of the reactions we saw at the time those two stories came out were decidedly negative! <

Serialized story-telling has two things to offer: good stories and continuity. You need to have at least one.

If the story doesn't actually affect future stories in any meaningful way, it needs to be worthwhile on quality alone. If it's a lousy story, then it needs to have some impact on continuity to be worth reading.

If it's both a lousy story and might as well never have happened for all its impact in the future, I just wasted $3.

Posted by Brian Gibbons on 2008-04-24 03:26:02
PLEASE tell me that Marvel is not seriously considering rotating the Spider-Man wheel yet again back to where it was before One More Day. I've had enough with these stupid revolving door solutions in ASM! The book's actually perfect the way it is now!

Posted by Fetsur on 2008-04-24 04:28:47
about changes
It need at least ideas.
There are ideas who are top-market ideas :The death of Cap,Bucky as the New Cap, Danny Rand posing as Daredevil for a new ongoing ; and ideas who are story-ideas :Thor is a frog for three episodes, Nighthawk having new eyes who detect crimes before they get commit.
Then the changing, this transition become part of history of the caracter, and it tell us something.

Posted by bulgarianyogurt on 2008-04-24 07:29:55
I agree with Michael Heide and Fetsur about this. Please tell me that OMD/BND isn't going to be the Bobby Ewing dream sequence or some kind of pocket universe. That would just stink so much. I think the Spider-office has something going with BND and ASM is fun in a way that it hasn't been in a long while. If you go back and pull the reset switch again, it would be like somebody working and sweating to lose 50 pounds of weight, only to completely quit and put it all back on.

Posted by bigdaddyhub2 on 2008-04-24 10:26:43
Actually, we're more angry because his webshooters somehow malfunction every single frickin' issue. It's just no funny anymore.

Posted by The Gecko on 2008-04-24 14:11:36
bigdaddyhub2:
-don't you really think there are interesting ideas with this pocket-universe concept ?
just wanted to know.
yeah.pocketuniverse, anyone ?
aha.so ?

Posted by notapotatoe on 2008-04-24 14:57:41
loose change ?
I already said that I was happy with Marvel's recent changes ( Eternals, Iron Fist back,MoonKnight,the Defenders,Guardians of the Galaxy,Incredible Hercules,maybe the return of the Champions ?...) so don't believe I take some naughty pleasures to 'constantly arguing'
BUT
I find you incredibely light about changes on this one, Tom.
I remember the Marvel tentative to compete with at the time the new Vertigo line, a 'Nightmare' ongoing for 'The Sandman', I forget the others tries, not considering that before these Vertigo titles became Vertigo titles,they were just DC titles but strong ones, ( as Shade, and so...) I really hope , wish you, that titles like Moonknight or Foolkiller will drive to a new MAX label, but that's not really the case now.
Talking about changes and DC, did you consider to take a similar risk DC toke when they released the 'one year without (Superman, Batman, Wonderwoman )'?,
it could be Marvel without:
- Captain America ( for some reasons Bucky became outlawed, refusing the StarkWorld, and found a new Legion of Liberty , we'll have an 'American Eagle' title instead, with still America in it )
- Fantastic Four ( the original team went missing, are they all died, Franklin and Valeria are under SHIELD and Stark' protection, but Ghost Rider, Hulk, Wolverine and Spiderman take up the team they once been, for the spirit of FF survives...by Chris Bacchalo, it would be wonderful )




Posted by notapotatoe on 2008-04-25 11:46:11
Amazing Chris Bacchalo
Speaking of Chris Bacchalo, you said in a wonderful interview in Newsarama about Spidey' creative team that he provided a wonderful SpiderMan -artist.
In fact, I don't really understand Marvel readers.
Why hire him if he can't be himself ?
'Generation X' and 'Ghost Rider 2099' were considered as the climax of the mastering of his own art,( the product of maybe ten years of work and research for DC on Shade until he become the artist we know on 'Death : the high cost of living' or 'Shade :Off the road' ), all of this to be spitted on the face ?
He's maybe a wonderful Spidey artist but not the artist he could be, and neither 'Amazing SpiderMan' the title he could become.
It's funny to speak about continuity, changes and transitions.
Why don't you make a title evolving, without especially creating a new Label ( but why not ?), and the readers with elve with too, and having pleasure to do so.
Don't be afraid to ( dixit Warren Ellis about his -too short-run on 'Thunderbolts' ) re-design the house.Maybe you'll be surprised, about reader'reactions if Spidey was draw by Sean Phillips or Ted Mc Keever, and writted by Ann Nocenti or Jamie Delano.
I don't even know what your 'What if ?..' titles are made for...

Posted by notapotatoe on 2008-04-25 12:03:32
I complain a lot about Marvel
I complained a lot about in my e-mails and post. BUT There are positives too. AND I realize that it even possible for those at marvel to make mistakes. I used to believe that continuity was KING at Marvel. I never considered myself a big Spiderman fan. BUT UN DOING Spiderman wedding and JUST resetting Spiderman world. ...... Do you actually expect Marvel readers to just accept that?

My point, THERE are some points where Marvel makes changes you have to expect hate. As story tellers you can do anything. I some times have no sympathy what so ever.

I personally really dislike "resetting" the Marvel U. If other like then that is great. If no body likes but you do it anyway that is bad. Lucky nothing is 100% so no matter how good or bad some thing is, some one will love and somebody will hate.


Noppie

Posted by Noppie on 2008-04-26 22:43:13
The only reason I'm upset that the new powers are gone is because we had to go through those awful stories in the first place... There should be some kind of payoff for that!

I agree that it's totally cyclic. You'll have a run that's going OK, but maybe getting a little stagnant, and you'll think, "OK, how can we shake things up?" So you make a drastic change, to really get people's attention. It works for five minutes, there's a sales boost... but it's not totally thought out, or some aspect's not as strong as it should be, or deadlines are missed, or continuity mistakes are made, or the writers get nostalgic, or the fans just disagree with the decision. After a while, things drift back to a stable status quo.

Spider-Man's the most obvious example. Todd McFarlane's run, the Clone Saga, the Reboot, and BND were all built around the same principle: make Spidey younger and more accessible and cooler. Todd left and the art drifted back toward the "classic" style. The Clone Saga bothered people because they felt they'd wasted their time reading Spider-Man comics if Petey was a clone all along, and the change was reversed (poor Ben!). In the Reboot, MJ "died" but it just never caught on, even with the writers, and she came back in the next run, which pushed Spider-Man back to the top of the charts. I guess we'll see where BND will go but I have my suspicions.

It happens in other comics of course. The best you can hope for is that the good elements of the revolutions will remain. I've only seen a couple that were as well-liked as the stable periods in between though. Near as I can figure people just don't like change, but they adjust to it.

Posted by aurata on 2008-04-27 00:26:02
There's actually a great essay on this subject here; http://www.websnark.com/archives/2008/01/retconning_just_1.html

There's a bit more BND bashing at the beginning, but if you can get past that, it makes a number of really solid points about the problems with the cyclical nature of mainline superhero comics.


Posted by Muldrate on 2008-04-27 03:25:08
The Other was AWFUL
...and I can't believe anyone seriously missed the changes it wrought. However, the above poster is correct in saying that, given that Marvel themselves basically ignored 'The Other' and its developments after publishing it, they rendered the whole story pointless. It was already a waste of ink and effort, but Marvel managed to make the fans feel like they had wasted their money, too.

And the DeFalco/Frenz run on ASM is SUPERB. Much love to those guys.

Posted by Moorish on 2008-04-29 10:36:19
Change Is Good When Well Executed
I don't mine change when it moves the character forward, so that we will have new and interesting stories. The best example I know of is the Batman Year One move, where we revisit the Batman origin story and end up with a darker Batman. This was executed extremely well.

On the Marvel side, when Jim Lee and Claremont started with X-Men #1 back in the 90's, we saw a re-invented X-MEN that still shows up in our movies today. The execution was brilliant. The character designs were good and stories were good, save for the Magneto/Wolverine story where Wolverine loses his metal.

The Spider-man changes have not made the character better. The Clone Saga was just a bad idea. The killing of his Aunt was not a whole lot better. What type of man is Spider-man that he makes a deal with the devil? Is he becoming Spawn?

I think with a flagship title like Spider-man it makes the most sense to throw the best talent at the character. The organic web versus the mechanical was not a huge jump. Killing off 20 years of Spider-man history is a huge jump. Walk carefully and jump carefully.

Posted by empedocles on 2008-05-09 15:26:39
speaking of...
anyway we can cut back on all of the s.ex scenes? It's becoming a little tedious constantly having bedroom shots of Scott and Emma, who have had the worst luck at their jobs as headmasters. Is that all there is to the relationship? If that's the case, please bring back Jean. Relationships can have plenty of substance without the gratuitous T&A, and still focus on their students survival. and thanks, but marriage does NOT equal boring. That's quite a loaded statement, considering the writing talent Marvel hires.

Posted by domino21710 on 2008-05-13 16:28:25