* Smack *
Can someone get JohnB an icepack? Cause he just got beat down.

Posted by jszilla on 2008-12-15 19:00:18
Yowza!
Bravo Tom. Well said.

DD.

Posted by nancyraygun on 2008-12-15 19:03:29
Eh... I like the smack talk, but at the same time, I'm not sure if I disagree with the things that Byrne said.

1) No new X-titles. Hell, I don't really care if you make any new one's or not, I'm kinda looking forward to King Breaker, I'm just not sure if I can afford any new one's (titles/books) without having to give up an old one or two. That being said, if Marvel can keep the quality up on these four part specials (such as Manifest Destiny) I just might be interested. (Although I'm imagine Young X-Men would be the first to go if I had to drop one, nothing personal, I didn't exactly read the kids in New X-Men either).
2) No recycling of 20-30 year old storylines. I truthfully have no idea what he's referencing, but hell, Gabriel Summers is slowly working his way into my heart, now all I need is for Jean to come back for good and I'd be sold.
3) No more "writing for the trade", okay, all that means is that JB thinks a full story shouldn't have to take four or six issues, and that sometimes there's a whole lot of fill-in that seems like it could have been left out and the story could have been one issue shorter. Maybe i agree, maybe I don't. I do think that a lot of X stories over the last few years didn't need to be four or six parters, but I really think Marvel has made a lot of strives over the last few years to make me feel like I'm not just wasting time until the writer makes the big reveal. (I don't wait for the trade, I read each week).
4) No stories that run more then 3 issues. Well, that just sounds like complete and utter... A story should run as long as it needs to, with each page, panel, etc..., in place for a reason. Messiah Complex was great, and it was 12 issues/13+ long. I agree that some twelve parters don't really need to be 12 issues plus director's cuts long, but at the same time, Messiah Complex... However, 'cause I"m really wishy-washy on this one, I have to say, it wouldn't hurt if I could get a couple of one or two issue stories instead of four or five. And no, I don't want to return to the days of having more dialogue on four pages then many current books have in their entire issues, but sometimes, well sometimes I do feel like the events of some issues (mid-story) didn't need to be as well fluffed out as they have been.
5) No pinup covers. Do people actually buy a book based on its cover or is it just a phrase. (I know some people do, I'm just being snarky.) I don't really care about the covers, but I loved great group shots by Michael Turner more then I do White Queen porn-pinups. How do those women fight crime with double-D's? Truthfully though, I don't really care about covers, but I did go out of my way to try and find (in vain) Michael Turner's X-men 500 cover.
6) No fake deaths.
7) No real deaths. I'm not sure that you can take 'death' away from the job of a hero, or a villain for that matter. If you did, how long before people would get tired of it and long for someone important (and not a B or C rate wannabe) to die. However, I will say that unless Kitty Pryde's magic bullet is going to make the difference in King Breaker, are you kidding me! Just bring her back and I'll politely forget that it ever happened. And Steve Rogers, hell, I don't believe that you won't have Steve Rogers as Captain America when the movie comes out, so I guess I'll have to wait two years for you to prove me wrong, right... Lets not even get started on Phoenix... That'd be Scott Summer's wife, where's the OMD chorus for the sancitity of marriage when you need it. Hehe.
8) No breaking of the "status quo" by the latest flavor of the month "talent". Can't agree or disagree. Seems oxymoronic to assume that the "talent" from the flavor of the previous decade or two would know better then the fresh "talent" from the current month, but I do think that sometimes the current fresh "talent" pulls off a lot more cheap thrills then the old school talent used to, and then they leave the title just in time for someone to retcon everything in order clean up their mess. Look, I think that entire volumes could be written based on Byrne's last sentence, and everything Tom wrote makes complete sense if a person reads what JB wrote, so I'll just leave it at this. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but I personally agree with Tom.


Posted by thomas more on 2008-12-15 20:48:45
See, I think you could really address this letter to just about everyone who reads this blog, starting with me. I'll belly ache as much as the next guy, but I don't do the work to turn that arm chair expertise into action. Good letter.

I Believoort!

Posted by kyle-latino on 2008-12-15 21:30:09
Where could I get a look at the full wish list? I'm interested to see everything he said so I can understand whats going on.

Posted by megamile15 on 2008-12-15 21:52:58
I wholeheartedly agree with Mr. Byrne on his point about no more writing for the trade. I returned to comics in 2006 after being away for about 15 years and my biggest gripe at the time was the decompressed storytelling.
Look, if a story needs to be 6 issues long I'm fine with that, but that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be any done in one issues. In my opinion nearly every arc that Marvel publishes could be at least one or two issues shorter. Secret Invasion is a good example, especially since it was $3.99 an issue. If Secret Invasion had been five issues instead of eight I think it would have been a much more satisfying read. I think we can all agree that comics are not cheap and it would be nice if Marvel cut away as much fat as possible and gave readers meatier books. If Marvel are committed to writing for the trade then I wish they would skip monthlies and just switch over to all trades. Then these stories could be read as they are obviously intended to be. As a monthly reader it can be frustrating to feel like the quality of the books is suffering because they are intended for a different format.

As far as Mr. Byrne goes I would love to see him back at Marvel but maybe superhero books aren't what he wants to do anymore? Star Trek isn't my thing but if he's happy doing that then good for him.

Posted by rialb on 2008-12-15 23:01:44
Complaining
Truthfully, you're right Tom, complaining solves absolutely nothing. Yes, saying that online is the equivalent of throwing a match into the ocean, but still:

If you want to do something or change something, focus on the doing or changing. Negative attitudes toward something won't fix a single thing.

Though instead of critiquing Byrne's message, I'd ask him instead: "What would YOU like to do if you were writing for Marvel today?" You might get more productive answers if you tap into some productive passion.

Posted by PseudoSherlock on 2008-12-15 23:40:53
Yeah!
Yeah! Put his money where his mouth is. Lets get John Byrne back in the game. I would love to see his work again, especially if he's teamed back up with Chris Claremont (he could probably use the boost, he's not at his best as of late).

Now what about those statements he made? I'd like to see a link as well. But based on Thomas More's statements I guess I can make an opinion (if not the best one).

1). True that. There are too many X-Titles right now. Three core X-Series, three spinoffs, and tons of mini series as well as two single hero titles. Yeah, there's a little too much X-Men these days. Sad thing is, I like the X-Men, but I know too much of a good thing is bad for you.
2). Sure, it's a treat to have a plotline tie into a old famous plotline, but it's happened alot lately. Retro's in these days, but gawd give it a rest. I'm sure you all can make new classics by coming up with new storylines.
3). No more writing for the trades. Again, too much of a good thing can be bad for you. Sometimes I'm annoyed that a storyline that would take one or two episodes in the 80's or 90's takes five freakin' issues. It feels like a money grab to me, and I hate being used like that! At the same time, I also understand the need for structure, order and coherency, so in a way the 4-6 issue trade paperback formula is a pretty good idea. I guess my opinion overall is that it shouldn't be done all the time. Don't overuse it.
4). I agree with Thomas on this point. A story should take as long as it should take. Again, the real problem is stories that should only take a couple issues are being stretched out way too long.
5). Sure, make some pinups. It's all good to me. I like superhero pinups. I miss the swimsuit issue. Just don't turn my comic heroines into one giant pinup issue. There's a time and place for everything, and the ENTIRE COMIC isn't it. Emma, that means you! LOL
6). No fake deaths? Sounds reasonable. Fake deaths are cheesy anyways.
7). No real deaths? What the hell?! Then where's the feeling of actual risk? Not much of a vested interest if you know there's no actual danger to the character. Sure, I didn't like it when alot of my favorite characters died, like Captain America or Kitty Pryde, but at the same time I know I was supposed to feel upset over their passing. Emotional investment in characters is essential to making an enjoyable story. No risk, no reward. Otherwise it just feels flat and fake. And no resurrections. That just cheapens their death.
8). It depends. Sure, I don't want some C-lister showing how better he is from the rest of the Marvel Universe, but at the same time I don't want the Marvel Universe to bury itself under hubris, using the same old heroes to save the day. I'll have to think this further.

Sure, I agree with Tom at John should step up and show us how it's done. But you know what, he can't do it with Marvel. I know it. It sounds like he's desperate to get back in the game, but he has his own ideas and he's dead set on forcing them through. Marvel has its own ideas and agenda to deal with, and lets face it, their current market formula is based off years of trial and error and they'll be less than inclined to make radical changes to it... whether it needs it or not.

If John wants to do it his way, would Marvel be the way to go?

Posted by DRock1 on 2008-12-16 01:50:15
Not that I disagree but
While many of the points Tom raises are perfectly valid. While my personal opinion is that John Byrne while still a talent should learn to shout up one thing really bugged me about Tom's post. Tom is always saying that people who critique the work of Marvel creators are perfectly entitled to do so BUT shouldn't assume to know motivations or assume knowledge that they don't have.

Therefore Tom I'd suggest practice what you preach in this case. Well unless you know for a FACT that John Byrne is jealously wishing to work for MArvel in which case I will disappear into an embarrassed corner!

Posted by ctaylor on 2008-12-16 03:41:45
While I understand that Mr. Bynre has produced some comics that a number of people really like, I'm really not sure that these types of responses are worth the effort. They're clearly not going to be taken seriously, and having spent some time on the Byrne boards, I can say that, to my mind, it really exemplifies all of the worst, Simpsonized stereotypes about comics and their fans. It frequently appears to be a bunch of middle aged men loudly proclaiming that everything sucks and was much better thirty years ago (Resetting the status quo to 1975, BTW, is Byrne's idea for fixing the modern Marvel U), and expressing what appears to be sincere outrage when Aquaman is not taken seriously enough.

If he weren't at least partially responsible for things like the Dark Phoenix saga, Byrne be promptly (and often, rightly) labeled as a troll and ignored.

But, hey, that's just my opinion. If there are people who want to gather together and talk about how awesome their formative years with comics were, I have no real issues. Just let them have their corner; there's no need to drag them into this one.

Also, I want to quickly thank Tom for, you know, not banning all the people who are weighing in against him. Note that you will NEVER see anything like this level of dissent at the Byrne forum.

Posted by Muldrate on 2008-12-16 07:04:23
You've got to be kidding
This is why I hate the industry that I've loved my entire life. A creator post on his blog about things he'd like to see changed. A company man calls him out on a blog to the whole world. This childish, immature, B.S., fanboy behavior helps kill the business.

Tom, maybe you should have picked up the phone and talked with John about this. I don't think he's crying out to Marvel for work. I think he's asking for a changed from the decompressed story telling, the photo-glamorous talking heads, the rockstar mentalities, the dark and sometimes depressing story lines.

I agree in some aspects that the industry has moved on and past Byrne. But a lot of the "old guard" are masters of sequential story telling and have many stories left to tell. I like the stuff Marvel is putting out but every now and then you need to step back and take a look at everything.

John Byrne will always be who he is but I'd hope that professionals in this business, on all sides, would stop restoring to the internet as a way to communicate with each other. It has no benefit for the comics.

Posted by mulfordj on 2008-12-16 08:49:16
RSVP
Lots of people would love to see John Byrne back at Marvel.

Would JB like to take the helm of the X books and have a stab?

Posted by olavthehairy on 2008-12-16 09:17:46
I'd really like to see some 'Alpha Flight' hidden stories.Or why not another team-up with Chris Claremont onto...'X-Factor ' ?

I didn't forget what connected me with Marvel comics and Byrne is part of it.
There's something already classic in his way to approach the relaunch of some characters and stories as whole, if you take a look on 'Alpha Flight' actually, or 'The West Coast Avengers', it was a fan -dream but we didn't get the feeling that he had done what he really wanted, we got the feeling he just finished to just setting things up and then had to move. I'm not sure that mister Byrne has his place now in the MU, I tend to see him revisiting the past instead of going further, but I'm probably wrong.
The real problem that Byrne had with Marvel was also a question with the status of authors. Are you ready to... polemic about that ? I reminber mister Miller having nice arguments too.


Posted by notapotatoe on 2008-12-16 09:49:45
Come back John
I, for one would like very much to see JB come back and play with the Marvel toys. True, his last Marvel projects were not too good but I still would love to have him back.

FF would be great ,Silver surfer would be pretty cool too (mostly if it involved Galactus!). Some other Kirby creations would be cool too : Eternals, Machine Man, Devil Dinosaur!!!


See, I don't really care for all this posturing, ego trippin stuff but if it can ACTUALLY lead in JB coming back to Marvel, then great! Everybody wins!!!!

Posted by baxtos on 2008-12-16 09:54:53
Byrne? Really?
What’s so important about John Byrne? I like some of his work. I especially like his run on FF (his last issues suck, thou), and I hear that he co-plotted some of the great X-men stories with Chris Claremont. For years I thought his Superman was great, but Busiek’s proved me wrong.
But he just keeps complaining how he had no creative freedom in a corporate owned media. His main grudge is that Marvel and DC didn’t let him broke the toys he was hired to play with (similar happened when Claremont quitted, and he was also wrong, but at least Claremont complete influence in the X-books and mutant-related universe cannot be denied).
I think Byrne does not understand the media he claims so much to love. And he has surrounded himself with people that only pamper his ego.


Posted by freyes2000 on 2008-12-16 10:25:08
pot meet kettle
I am no fan of Byrne, I thought Chapter 1 was awful, but the above blog was childish and immature. Unprofessional. What would Stan do?

Posted by Webhead623 on 2008-12-16 12:34:45
John Byrne
I would really like to see both JOHN BYRNE and ROGER STERN back working for MARVEL again.MARVEL could sure use them.Plus now that I now know that there are REAL LOST GENERATION CHARACTERS[ see MARVEL:THE LOST GENERATION # 1 to 12 for the PHONY LOST GENERATION HEROES/VILLAINS whom I like ].But ATLAS COMICS has CHARACTERS that could be recruited to be HEROES/VILLAINS.In MAN COMICS( last 3 issues(?)) is a Kid Team that could grow up to be the LOST GENS answer to the CHALLENGERS OF THE UNKNOWN,called the TROUBLE-SHOOTERS( their leader's Older Brother is a SPY so that links them to the G-MEN,MONSTER HUNTERS and the FIRST LINE ).

Posted by Grant Garner on 2008-12-16 13:04:19
Man, I love comics. Have for a long time. Being a child of the 70's and really falling in love with comics in the 80's, the 90's were REALLY hard and the 00's started really well but has gotten worse and worse. Writers just don't get the "who" of these characters. The characters are being bent and twisted and shoe-horned into a story, instead of the writers really writing for the characters. And this decompressed storytelling is awful.
Look at some of the best storylines throughout Marvel's history... Miller's DD, Clairemont and Byrne's X-Men, Simonson's Thor, Stern's ASM... Each issue was a good story, while sub-plots and layered story-telling connected runs together. Please, go read some of these runs and see how it is supposed to be done.
In a recent issue of Wolverine, he kills an innocent woman. The only thing that bothers him is that he was tricked, not that he killed an innocent. Yes, Wolverine has and will kill, but re-read some of the classic Claremont, Byrne and Miller Wolverine moments and you realize he wouldn't react this way to making such a mistake. And thats just the latest example of bending the character to fit the story - You can also see One More Day, Civil War, and so on and so on.
My purchasing of Marvel comics has dwindled and keeps dwindling. After the Twelve is over, the only Marvel left on my list is DD.


Posted by will byrd on 2008-12-16 15:22:54
Bury the Hatchet!
Whatever gripe Marvel and Byrne have should have been buried long ago. Neither seems to want this to happen. Too bad as Mr. Byrne was one of the best in the biz in the 80's. I agree with him on several points but that is neither here nor there the point is that he still has a love for these characters and feels he is not allowed to play with them while Bendis and others have free reign to do whatever they please, or so it seems. Maybe if Marvel extended a open hand to him and allowed him to play in the same manner we would all be better off for it. A talent like his is not something you find every day and Marvel and the industry as a whole should not take that lightly.
I've been collecting comics since the 70's and I think the quality of comics has declined over the years. Maybe it's time to start up a line of comics letting the old boyz give there take on these beloved characters?
That being said not much we can do to change their minds, it's all up to them.
Later


Posted by canuck on 2008-12-16 15:56:32
Wow!
Tom, this is a great response. I think you really hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately, trying to talk sense into John Byrne is like trying convince the Spider-man editors that the new status quo is wrong and is hurting the characters. You know you're right, but they just won't listen. You might as well argue with a brick wall. Good effort, though.

Posted by scooter1a on 2008-12-16 16:04:34
I know it is a longshot but I for one think John Byrne should be back at Marvel and doing his thing. With Wolverine getting his movie next year JB could put together a kick *&!$$@ mini series and tell his kind of Wolverine stories. The kind that 99% of the world wants to see.

I'd love to see JB tackle the Avengers and Iron Fist. There is just so much of JB's past work that Marvel is mining let's get the master back at Marvel to not only show them how it is done but to put his spin back on the characters.

Posted by Suiter on 2008-12-16 16:36:20
still...
Busiek, Stern, Simonson, Waid, Wolfman... even something from Michelinie,. There are a lot of creators from the 80’s (or with that kind of flavor) still active, still giving wonderful stories. Why cry for someone that will give us stories that we can read in a reprint?

Posted by freyes2000 on 2008-12-16 17:51:29
I Salute You, Mr. Brevoort!
It had to be said. Everybody wants John Byrne working for Marvel, including John Byrne. I lasted about a week on Byrne's forum before I got banned for trying to get him to make friends with Marvel. You couldn't have stated it better, inclunding the suggestion about Macchio. He's the problem if he doesn't accept the challenge, and everybody will see it once and for all.

I'd like to see X-Men:Hidden Years, Alpha Flight, She-Hulk, Namor, Avengers, Fantastic Four, and especially Hulk or Wolverine art from the legendary artist. He should be to Marvel what John Romita Jr. and Alan Davis currently are. (two more still relevant artists of his generation, and these two actually work for Marvel)

Bravo!

Posted by Dusty. on 2008-12-16 17:58:59
SCANDAL! HORROR! EXCITEMENT!

Posted by kyle-latino on 2008-12-16 19:29:58
Dark Reign #1
Well I agree with both threads to some degree. However I just read
Dark Reign #1 and for the life of me I can't see how Prince Namor was drawn to look like that. He looks like Dave Attell!

Posted by Hunter McFalls on 2008-12-16 21:29:11
Dark Reign #1
Well I agree to some degree on both threads. However I just read Dark Reign #1 and cannot understand why Prince Namor was drawn like that.
He looks like Dave Attell.

Posted by Hunter McFalls on 2008-12-16 21:46:39
"Sorry, just couldn’t let this one go by without a response, since it’s such a desperate cry for attention."

Tom, you would have done yourself more of a service to let the cry go unnoticed.

Posted by randin on 2008-12-16 21:50:36
I Agree...
I agree with Mr. Byrne on all of his points. I haven't read a monthly marvel book in years. I mostly pick up Essential and Classic volumes. Speaking of Mr. Byrne and Classic volumes. What ever happened to the Alpha Flight Classics Vol. #2?

Posted by DreamTheater001 on 2008-12-16 21:56:01
i gotta mention this too. Mr. John Byrne has a few words to say. Head on over to Byrne Robotics and find out.

Posted by thomas more on 2008-12-17 01:51:19
I have to mention...
That I'm totally sorry I started reading this post and then bridged over to Byrne's board. What I could have possibly gained from listening to multiple groups yell at each other when the majority of them aren't actually reading what the other is saying and neither "side" really has a point besides just being angry, I'm not quite sure.

That was all just very unpleasant. I think I'd rather go pick up a comic and read about a fictional fight that ends in some more satisfying way.

Posted by PseudoSherlock on 2008-12-17 10:10:17
Byrne is right.......
John Byrne is a lion of the industry and when this lion roars, you better all listen to what he has to say. How dare Marvel not bring Byrne into their fold and give him free reign on any of the Marvel Adventure books. That also goes for David Michelinie, Gerry Taloac, Sal Buscema, Herb Trimpe and Don Perlin, the true greats of this sorry little industry. Of course Byrne shouldn't be a part of the main Marvel line, his style just doesn't mesh with the lads working now but Marvel surely can find a place for such an old-fashioned, classic style. Maybe he could do an X-Men: Year One reboot or an untold story from Wolverine's past, the sky's the limit when it comes to such a creative force, a force Marvel needs right now, you're company is in the toilet and it's up to people like Byrne whether it gets flushed like so much feces.

As far as Mr. Brevoort's "Challenge", Byrne has answered your challenge hundreds of times while you were on your knees trading favors for work at a morally bankrupt company that crushed the spirits of good men like Byrne and Simonson. Don't underestimate a god like Byrne, creatively he could rip out all your spines and urinate all over your small intestinal tracks, laughing while you meekly beg for more, you mongoloid muthers!

Please, Mr. Brevoort, come to Byrne's board and talk to him like a man, just because he managed to make a few mistakes while working for you in the past, I think the two of you could have an interesting discussion on ways to make comics better.

Posted by chadcarter on 2008-12-17 11:08:17
LOL
^^^^

Laughs at above comment. Very funny stuff.

Posted by bigdaddyhub2 on 2008-12-17 12:29:40
contacting Tom
Tom Brevoort
Pat Broderick here Tom. I can be reached at earlysunpat@aol.com for anyone in accounting attempting to close out your books for reprint pay. I’ve moved around a bit since 96 so I’m positive that their attempts to contact me failed. Pat


Posted by pat broderick on 2008-12-17 15:11:14
I have to agree with Muldrate and freyes about this piece being immature. Mr. Brevoort, the logical, mature response would be to answer John Byrne's challenge point for point. That would have been more informative and interesting (especially for one such as myself who has not been regularly reading comics for a long while). Instead, your response is basically "You're jealous. You know you want to be back working for Marvel." That doesn't answer the challenge in any meaningful way at all and serves only to deride Mr. Byrne even while singing Mr. Byrne's praises. Since you clearly view the challenge as misinformed, why not explain why it is misinformed? And why the dig at IDW and Dark Horse? What did they do to deserve your derision?

Mr. Byrne's challenge could have been posed by anyone; it just happened to have been posted by Mr. Byrne. Why does that automatically mean a "desperate cry for attention" and a burning desire to work for Marvel again? Again, I say it could have been posted by anyone because I've seen some of the same kind of issues brought up elsewhere. Answer the challenge, Mr. Brevoort. In a mature, respectful way, please. Not with more psychobabble.

Posted by grimm720 on 2008-12-17 19:22:15
Re: decompression
I read comics voraciously as a kid. But then as a teen I discovered girls and rock and roll, and I stopped reading comics. As I got older, now and then I'd pick one up in hopes of feeling the magic again. Never happened. Maybe I was just picking wrong, but everything I tried seemed trite and shallow.

But then once I had kids of my own, I tried again, and it was the so-called "decompressed" storytelling that hooked me. The quality of the writing was worlds above anything I remembered reading in the '80s, and stories now had a depth of character and plot that went way beyond just setting up the next fight scene.

Roger Ebert's rule for movies holds equally true of comics: "No good story is too long, and no bad story is short enough."

I love the new depth of story and character that sometimes takes many issues to resolve. Keep 'em coming.


Posted by Mark S. on 2008-12-30 19:54:40