meaningless
that is all i have to say

Posted by tarhaun on 2006-07-24 14:15:26
Predictably"the Few and the Loud" Bendis bash
When a guy has mainstream success, there are always a handful of posters to slag him whenever his name comes up. Bendis, being cheerful and accessible to the fans, attracts even an even louder handful of critics whose beef seems to boil down to "Why Bendis?" as opposed to the merits of his work. I think the vast majority of the fans will vote with their wallets and by both books as long as Bendis maintains the high standards he set for himself.
I think this is great news; epsecially when you consider the awesome and diverse artists working on the two books.

Posted by gentega on 2006-07-24 15:02:54
I think, though, that you understand the basic argument that some of us have expressed - which is that, while New Avengers has done a great job of bring new readers into the Avengers' world, it's also alienated some long term readers. As one of those readers who does not enjoy New Avengers but loves reading about the team, it's extremely frustrating to hear that another Avengers title will be launched - by the same writer that I don't like on the other Avengers title.


Posted by Mo_Soar on 2006-07-24 15:41:07
As long as I'M happy
To Mo_Soar: Yes, but it makes people like me happy who THOROUGHLY enjoy Bendis' work, while the old-time writers' work just isn't my cup 'o tea. Can't please all of the people all of the time.

Good job responding to that Tom, I personally totally get it, but I guess it's easier for me b/c I actually KNOW how things work here and everybody else has to guess...

Posted by Jen Grunwald on 2006-07-24 16:06:45
But then the question remains, Jen, why not publish both? New Avengers could continue to be by Bendis and attract you. Then a second Avengers title could be by someone who can/wants to write with a spirit closer to the original Avengers, thereby attracting fans of the classic team. By having them both be Bendis, Marvel continue to alienate a section of their readership.

And one wonders, how many New Avengers readers will stick around when Bendis, Spider-Man and Wolverine leave? Do they like the Avengers or just the writer? If the latter, then it's even more important Marvel should be publishing a classic Avengers title to keep readers like me around.

Posted by motteditor on 2006-07-24 17:52:29
Creative teams gelling...
What sort of advice would you have for new creators to make sure writers and artists that are teamed together work better?

I'm sure there are instances where you just can't avoid it at all, like say when someone's ego is involved, but are there any tips or pointers to people out there who want to work in this industry to prevent it from happening?

Posted by astrosapien on 2006-07-24 18:56:51
And Then There Were Two...
While it's unusual to have the same writer spread out across a whole family of titles, I don't think it's unprecedented. (Sadly, I cannot come up with an example off the top of my head.) As for the reasoning, I think Tom acquitted himself rather well in the opening salvo of this thread. Even if you don't like Bendis, I wouldn't sweat it. It's not like any one creative team lasts forever. I'm sure that sooner or later there's bound to be an Avengers writer whom you do like.

Posted by Lonesome Pinky on 2006-07-24 19:22:10
I forgot to say...
I forgot to say that Larry C makes a good foil for you, Tom. I think he's spurred you on to greater heights. He has strong opinions, but can express them without resorting to trollishness. (If that's not a word, then it is now!) Kudos, Larry C! Kudos, Tom!

Posted by Lonesome Pinky on 2006-07-24 19:26:47
bendis bendis bendis
A) Same creator on multiple titles in the one family - Claremont! He wrote both X-Men and Uncanny when the 'adjectiveless' title launched.

B) Bendis - I love how people assume they will HATE Mighty Avengers as written by Bendis. Did anyone stop to think that Bendis probably DOESN'T WANT to write two books that are identical? And may actually make an effort to write both books DIFFERENTLY? And that if you pry your little mind open a little bit - you might actually ENJOY it?

They're comic books! Relax and have a bit fun!

Posted by NewChad on 2006-07-25 06:38:11
Same Pattern
I think this is all consistent with the (annoying) pattern found in the comic community: quick and ultimate judgement well before even seeing a single page. I don't know how anyone could make a judgement call on the Mighty Avengers title at this point. It's not even close to being out yet. I really don't pay much attention to these types of opinions. I'll be excited to hear REACTIONS to the actual BOOK when it comes out. What's even more frustrating is that all the people who condemned the book before ever reading it will STILL be buying it and making it a top selling title. That makes no sense to me at all ("I hate this book but I'm going to buy it religiously").

What I do know is that Bendis has given some talk about the new title, saying that it will be substantially different from New Avengers, and it will have a completely different feel and purpose. How about we wait and see how it turns out before crucifying the writer?

Posted by PercussionMasta on 2006-07-25 10:28:33
New Avengers
Personally, I have enjoyed New Avenges and I look forward to Mighty Avengers. One of the things I could not stand about previous runs on the book was how there some characters that did not really fit the idea of Earth’s Mightiest Heroes. I also got tired of the endless Vision, Scarlet Witch, and Wonder Man love triangle. At least New Avengers is bringing some new dynamics to the table. Also Im a big fan of the Sentry so any book with him in it is good to me.

Posted by nobleson on 2006-07-25 11:43:48
The Mighty Ugh
Tom it really gnaws at me when you use phrases like "the best-selling title in the industry for two years now" to justify Bendis. You did the same thing when discussing Secret War, a couple of weeks back. You think Bendis is the one selling the books? It's Spider-man and Wolverine. You put them together on a team and it will sell like hotcakes regardless of how bad the plots are. Chuck Austen could write NA and it would sell. Just like Superman/Batman over at DC. It is pretty weak and yet sells because of who the main players are.

New Avengers is not the Avengers. I could give you a laundry list of two years worth of problems with that title. Some examples are the Avengers are supposed to be the mightiest team on Earth and they spend their time talking or fighting low level threats like ninjas. The personalities of most of the characters have been way off. (Especially during Disassembled. That was horrible writing.) The Sentry arc was more an X-title than an Avenger's tale. Sentry himself is a Deus Ex Machina to pull out when you need a quick fix and then you store him away with mental issues when you don't want his power around. And Ronin was lame. A girl in a man-suit? One of the most unspectacular reveals since the "cameo that will crack the internet in half". And the art is hit or miss.

Each writer has their strengths. Bendis's is in dialogue. It is not in writing team stories. He cannot write epic battles that the Avengers are known for. I've not been on the edge of my seat at all the past 2 years with this title. New Avengers is constantly at the bottom of my read pile because I simply don't care what happens next. Bendis can't create that intensity needed to make a reader care. If you wanna keep him on NA, fine. But put a different writer on the second Avenger's title so you can appease more of the Avenger's fans. Because when it comes to the Mighty Avengers, Bendis just can't do mighty.

Posted by thatsmystapler on 2006-07-25 15:43:32
Answering the question "why do people prejudge titles" - when I pick up Previews each month, there are usually between 50-100 monthlies, trades, OGNs and manga that look potentially interesting. Since I have neither the time, money nor inclination to read that many titles, I have to use my judgement on what I will and will not preorder. I narrow that field down using a variety of methods, including previews, interviews, solicit text and often the creative team.

I am familiar with both Bendis and Cho - I've read ALIAS, POWERS, DISASSEMBLED, HOUSE OF M, about 14 of the 21 issues of NEW AVENGERS and about 3 issues of SECRET WARS. I liked the first two (ALIAS quite well) but was not impressed with the last four, and for similar reasons each time. I'm also not a fan of Frank Cho's heavily-cheesecake- influenced art.

So, yes, I will prejudge a title based on those things. It may be that I read reviews after the comic comes out, or flip through it at my LCS and change my mind, but for now I'll settle for being disappointed at the choice of creative team and not preordering the title.


Posted by Mo_Soar on 2006-07-25 17:11:33
I don't think a story is worth telling unless there's someone to tell it to. Therefore, using utilitarianism as a guide, if one story can be told to more people than another, tell the story to more people. Bendis will sell more books based on his GOOD reputation and skills compared to most writers out there. Therefore he can tell the story to more people that can appreciate the story rather than appease the few that are disappointed.

Posted by meestercheeser on 2006-07-25 23:33:35
Personaly I've loved what Bendis had been doing with the New Avengers I think the characterazation has been great and the stories excellent. I don't see how you can say they haven't been fighting threats at there level. First arc they fought something like 90 to 100 supervillans, which many had fought the avengers single handedly, which led into a huge conspiracy behind a lot of the marvel u. Then they delt with the House of M fallout thing. I mean those were huge world threatening problems.

Anyway I for one am looking forward to the new title and also I read at NEWSARAMA that NA is still going to be more about conspiracies and MA is going to be huge treatening supervilians to fight both are going to be completely diferent so people should hold judgement till it at least gets closer to release date.

Posted by Alkaline21 on 2006-07-26 04:17:18
What threats?
lol Threats?

First the NA(using the term loosely since they weren't officially formed yet) were getting their collective rears handed to them by the villains of the Vault until Sentry got loose. Spider-man even had his arm broken. And 40 villains managed to escape. I have no problem with this since it was the setup for future tales. But let's see where it goes from there.

The Avengers go to take on Electro and um scare him. No fight. They then kill um..a dinosaur. Alrighty. They then get taken out in a matter of seconds by the Mutates. Escape to try to take down Sauron, to have him taken down by the rogue SHIELD unit instead. So then they go after the rogue SHIELD unit, to only have the real SHIELD take them down.

Then we move to the Sentry arc, where the majority of the team gets manhandled by Wrecker before taking him down. Cap soloed Wrecker who was at higher power levels back during the Under Siege storyling. And then the Avengers along with most everyone else get whupped on by the Void till Emma convinces Bob to take control of it. Epic Avenger battles for $500 Alex. *sigh*

So now comes the big Ronin arc. Woohoo!!! Who cared again? Oh yeah, Bendis and 12yos into ninjas. The Avengers fight Ninjas. Daredevil fights ninjas alone. And the Earth's mightiest team fights them too? It's like calling in the Navy SEALS to stop a mugger. They go to apprehend Silver Samurai and end up walking away leaving him free. Oh but they caught Viper, who ends up escaping.

And from there we see the Avengers finally muster their might to....scare off gangs in a neighborhood. Yay for Cage's urban renewal plans!!! And from there they finally fight the walking mutant energy being from HoM. Sentry is the only one who holds his own out of the NA members. And it all ends when it is revealed to be Xorn and the powers are put into Magneto who essentially gives up.

The New Avenger's have officially won against Wrecker and a dinosaur. It's a pretty pathetic list of accomplishments they have under their belt currently. Heck, even the Thunderbolts took them down. If you lived in the MU and the Kree were invading Earth or Galactus came to munch on it, who would you rather have protecting you? The New Avengers or for example Busiek's line-up? I'll take Busieks. (though I gotta admit I hated Triathalon)

And as for the characterizations being great, did you read any Avenger's comics prior to Disassembled? In that arc alone they were totally off. Wasp turned into a whiny lil girl. She used to lead the team and told off Hercules on a regular basis and she flipped out this easily? Hank and Tony start going at each other out of the blue. It was just horrible. And then we start New Avengers and we get Tony comparing the joining of Wolverine to when Cap joined years before? Oi vey. Spidey acts like a total noob. It worked for Justice, but Spidey has been a hero for years and even turned down Avenger's membership before. He is accustomed and not the greenhorn that he is being portrayed as.

All in all, the series has been lackluster and fails to provide the epic battles and interest previous Avenger's series did.

Posted by thatsmystapler on 2006-07-26 11:49:00
seats
one poster said that NA failed to keep him/her on the edge of their seat. If your not on the edge, why stay in the seat? I think NA is wack, so I don't buy it. There are so many good comics coming outevery wednesday, from Marvel and other companies who shall not be named. When you don't purchase something because you think it is of inferior quality, that is the truest form of censorship! If you help get NA out of the top five every week, maybe you can get some different Avengers stories.

Posted by hulkspants on 2006-07-27 06:20:34
I'll be honest. I haven't much liked New Avengers. Oh, I keep buying it. So I can't complain too loudly. I'm one of those people who really likes the idea of the team, really likes the characters in the team, but just can't get excited about the stories.

I actually have to agree with thatsmystapler in some respects. I do feel like everything has just sort of been half thought out. Going back and reading them recently, I was struck by how little the Avengers seem to do in any given arc. There are bright spots though. The Annual was a great issue. I think some of the CW crossover stuff has gotten better. I wouldn't say I hate the book by any means, but I do feel like its a bit of a waste. I just wish it had a clearer sense of direction and tighter plotting.

All that being said, I wasn't too excited about Bendis taking over Mighty Avengers. I was downright annoyed. But I'll check it out and see if I like it. Anything could happen. And it is my hope that post Civil War, whatever ends up igniting the formation of the two teams, it will provide that stronger sense of direction I was hoping for.

I actually feel like Bendis is getting better as time goes by, after some initial mis-steps, so I'm optimistic. I just think writing a team book, with these characters especially, took some time for him to get the handle of. I'm hoping Bendis can marry some of his many strengths (dialogue, great character moments and business) with some of the more traditional qualities that I personally think exemplify a great team book with some of the heaviest hitters in Marvel comics (great villains, epic plots.)

Posted by jonwes on 2006-08-01 02:12:13