Too far?
"I mean, we told the origin of Wolverine, when everybody thought that would ruin the character forevermore--and the sky did not fall. Jean Grey came back from the dead, as did Elektra, as did Norman Osborn, as did Bucky. And the sky, she is still up there. "

The problem is, you're setting the bar too high. You're basically saying "Unless a move instantly brings the sales of a character's book crashing down [since that would be the sky falling], it's not too far." Myself, I would say the standard should be a little stricter than that. Telling Wolverine's origin has unquestionably made him less mysterious. Doing an ongoing series about his origins even more so. Sales haven't crashed, but is he a less compelling character for it? I think many people would say so, especially since his unknown background was one of the things that made him unique among superheroes.

Jean Grey's constant resurrections have removed all drama from any peril she may be in. We know she'll come back. Frank Miller's Death of Elektra is significantly cheapened by the fact that she's prancing around these days. Ditto for the ASM #122, and for Avengers #4. They no longer have the same dramatic resonance, nor do they have the same impact on the connected characters (Daredevil, Spider-Man, Captain America). So you lose that much, and what did you gain? Not much, in my opinion. That should be what is weighed when deciding if a move is going "too far" (not necessarily my choice of words).

Posted by CylverSaber on 2006-10-02 21:47:42
Are you just softening us up for the new FF line-up?

Posted by NewChad on 2006-10-03 06:45:45
response to cylversaber
If sales haven't fallen then doesn't that mean he is still compelling?

Posted by nickmaynard on 2006-10-03 09:25:03
Not necessarily. You've got to look at long-term vs. short-term. Something can have short-term popularity but the underlying concept may not be compelling-- which doesn't bode well for it in the long-term. The origin thing is just one part of the overexposure the character has suffered, and while his own book may be doing well at the moment, Wolverine's definitely not as big a draw as he used to be, as evidenced by the sales of his recent miniseries and guest-appearances. Damage to a character can be more subtle than just the sales on their book (which are often subject to completionism).

Posted by CylverSaber on 2006-10-03 10:26:55
wolverine's mystery
I don't know... I disagree. I think the idea of a story trying to tie up the disparate ends of wolverine's past is a great idea. To me, the core of the Wolverine character is less the man with memory, and more the struggle to be a man instead of an animal. Both Origin and, even more so, Origins tie into that idea very well. True, the fact that Origins is selling so well (better than the regular title) does not prove it will be beneficial in the long run, but to me, him (and us) knowing about the terrible things he's done just makes it all the more imperative that he fight his urges every day, which is his essential struggle.

Regaerding Elektra... that complaint I never understood, since wasn't it Miller who brought her back to life in Elektra Lives? So... she's alive.

In regards to the Green Goblin, I agree 100%. That was a pretty foolish move, one that did rob the original story of it's meanign and impact. Much like the return of Aunt May ruined the fabulous J M Dematties story in which she died.

Regarding these last two (May and Norman)... in a way, the sky DID fall a little bit. They come from an era many consider to be the worst in Spider-Man history, and which seems to be considered "radioactive" to this day. With Wolverine's origin, Elektra's rebirth, the Jean Grey ressurections, or the survival of Bucky, those events are important to the characters, and still affect them. With Norman and May (or Torch's Marriage) these events are completely taboo to mention. Norman's living is regularly acknowledged, but his death can now never be brought up again without retreading the horrible and ludicrous return, which makes one of the BEST issues of Spider-Man's book now off limits in current stories!

Posted by cracksh0t on 2006-10-03 10:45:39
Piling on
I think you have some great points, CrackShot. I guess I would try to define the conversation as not "the sky falls" or not, but rather is the character enriched or cheapened by the story. I stayed out of comics for about 18 years, and when I started reading again, it surprised me that some of my old faves weren't ruined, they were just made so...common. I have gravitated toward different characters because folks like Logan, who used to be my very favorite, were not as special as they had been. The origin reveal was, in my opinion, something that cheapened the character instead of enriching the character. Now on the other hand, I think that Tom was right when he posted not long ago that the characters are pretty much indestructible (Although Tony Stark is getting pretty close to a line that might make him radioactive as a hero.)

I believe that Wolverine's memory return has also served to cheapen the character. The Wolverine Origins series has to be one of the most frustrating books that I have ever encountered. It's whole premise is "oh wait, there's another Big Secret around the corner, just buy ONE more issue." There is no satisfaction in any of the Big Secrets and nothing of quality really happens. The character is not being truly enriched and advanced. If you want to really get back to enriching the character, go back and talk about the conflict between man and animal. Make him a pacifist or something!

Thanks to cylversaber for getting this discussion really kickstarted.

Posted by bigdaddyhub2 on 2006-10-03 11:14:08
Actually, although these things do take something away from the character, that is the nature of any interesting story that does something new with the character - you can never do that for the first time again. But I challenge the idea that Jean Grey can never be considered in peril again; it's up to a writer to find a way that she can be killed that convinces the reader sufficiently that she'll never come back.

By the way, when did the Human Torch marry Alicia Masters?

Posted by Fetsur on 2006-10-03 15:17:19
They first hooked up in Byrne's run while the Thing was away on the Secret Wars planet, and they got married in #300. The Alicia that married Johnny was later revealed to be Lyja, a Skrull agent, the real Alicia having been kidnapped (later rescued). Lyja had a change of heart and became a member of team during the later part of FF Vol.1, and is still a member (and married to the Torch, with children) in the MC2 future.

Posted by CylverSaber on 2006-10-03 16:07:53
"Regaerding Elektra... that complaint I never understood, since wasn't it Miller who brought her back to life in Elektra Lives? So... she's alive."

Isn't "Elektra Lives Again" out of continuity, though? As I understand it, Elektra's in-continuity return happened in either D.G. Chichester's "Daredevil" run or in the "Elektra: Root of Evil" (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Elektra fans and DD faithful)

Posted by Gokitalo on 2006-10-04 00:17:08
He brought her back in Daredevil #190.

Posted by Fetsur on 2006-10-04 05:39:39