"But I am saying that I don't worry at all about any reactions beyond the extremes, because good stories will always win out."

Yeah, I guess I just don't agree with that. I think even if there isn't an extreme reaction at that moment, the damage to the character's appeal can be more subtle and permanent. And when you're talking about long-running characters, I think that is something that should be considered when deciding on major story moves.

"You say that telling Wolverine's origin has made him less mysterious. Perhaps--but is that a bad thing? I think that the material revealed in ORIGIN opens up avenues for new stories."

Again, I disagree. We learned a bit about his past relationships and the era he grew up in, but I don't see how those revelations lead to very different stories or even a changed status quo for him going forward (even with those memories recovered). It really only served to demystify him, and in absence of any greater benefit, I think demystification is a bad thing. A mysterious character is generally more interesting, and there's no indication that people would have lost interest in Wolverine if we hadn't learned he grew up in the Victorian era. Indeed, people seemed to enjoy being able to speculate for themselves. In contrast, BWS' Weapon X (which I really regard as Wolverine's true origin) opened up a ton of new story directions, because the project, and the people associated with it, could still play roles in Wolverine's life going forward.

"No matter how many other guys you put in a Goblin costume, none of them were the equal of the genuine article--none of them have the history."

Eh. So you build history. I think there needs to be a better reason than "he had some great stories back in the day" to bring a character back, particularly when one of the best stories was the death itself.

"Marc DeMatteis' story was great, but I think it did lasting damage to the series in the long term--it subtracted elements and story possibilities, rather than adding them"

Wow, I couldn't disagree more. Aunt May's death put Peter in a totally different place with a totally different dynamic. It opened up a ton of avenues that were not available while he consistently had to play the role of the doting nephew ("I can't do that! It'll give Aunt May a heart attack!") I was personally looking forward to seeing how Peter would have changed and evolved, and when they brought her back, it just screamed "reset". All the progress, all the potential, gone. Right back to square one. Well, at least until Spider-Girl.

"Also, for the record, Lyja is not Johnny's ex-wife, not in any legal or moral sense. She married him posing as somebody else, under false pretenses. No church or court in the land would consider them married in any genuine sense of the term.)"

Well, sure, in modern times, but I looked at the story as a twist on the biblical story of Rachel and Leah, where Jacob was indeed legally married to Leah even though it was under completely false pretenses.

Also, who knows what Skrull law says? :)

Looking forward to DOCTOR STRANGE: THE OATH. I was disappointed to hear that Brian is giving up working on company-owned superheroes, though.

Posted by CylverSaber on 2006-10-04 23:55:25
Going Too Far?
I can understand the fine balancing act between going Too Far and not going Far Enough when trying to put a spin or twist on a character who has been around for decades.

One such character who has recently been changed around is of course Iron Man. With the Extremis enhancile shot into him, Tony Stark has changed quite drastically -- and judging from "Illuminati" and "Civil War" it seems that it has also sparked a change in the voice with which he is written. Which I don't really have much of a problem with since it is somewhat in line with how the character was relaunched by Warren Ellis in the first place.

Now keep in mind that I rather like the Extremis enhancile. I like how it takes Tony to a whole new level of technological advancement and gives him a new power struggle to deal with. But the balancing act comes into play -- with an (ostensibly) high profile film coming out in about a year and a half, is it too much of a change in the basic nature of the character as to render him indecipherable to any potential new readers? I remember when the first X-Men film was launched, and there were specific belly-aches from the Marvel camp (in Wizard, I am certain) about how none of the X-Books could be picked up by a new fan and enjoyed. If I remember correctly, this was in reference to the tehn-forthcoming Ultimate line, which originally was supposed to be an "easy entry point" for new readers. Oh how things change.

In any event, it will be interesting to see how Shellhead and Cap move forward post-CW, and how Tony comes to terms with the lengths to which he has already gone (and no doubt will continue to go) in CW, plus dealing with learning how to be a living supercomputer. But I have a nagging voice telling me that he won't get too far from the Modern Knight In Shining Armor, lest he be unrecognizable to film-going newbies in 18 months.

Thanks for listening!

Posted by ljacone on 2006-10-05 10:07:21
Wolverine's Memory, continued
>In this case, though, your problem isn't with the change in Wolverine's status quo--that he now remembers everything that's happened to him in his life--but in the follow-up stories that are being crafted.>

Yes and No, my problem is more that this is supposed to be THE BIGGEST THING to ever happen to Wolverine. He remembers everything that happened to him. Everyone he has loved and hated. Everyone he has saved, murdered, and killed. Everyone that did anything to him. People started suiciding when they heard the news. Dum Dum and Cap had a talk about it. And yet, outside of a few panels of Wolverine 36-40 and Origins, there has been absolutely no visible change to wolverine in any of the other books. New Avengers go along as if nothing had happened. X-books don't really talk about it. Now, even the Wolverine book doesn't reference the BIGGEST EVENT ever. If it was such a big deal, shouldn't he be a different person? Shouldn't he act like a man who has lost a wife and a family? Wouldn't he be talking about the old days all the time like someone who is 150 years old? Shouldn't he be infinitely sad because none of his friends that he grew up with are alive? Can't he even have lines like "this is just like that time in Normandy" or "you think this is tough? Try losing every one you have ever known." Do you get my point? Wolverine's memory return should have completely changed him because he now knows not just who he is, but who he was.
So if we are uncomfortable with fundamentally changing Wolverine, we probably shouldn't have gone down the road of memory return.
Mr. Tom, I do want you to know that this is fun for me, and I really do appreciate your senses. It's good to fight about COMIC BOOKS every now and then!

ljacone, I agree with you about Iron Man, but I truly believe that what we will see from the movie and where the new readers will be directed will be the Ultimate Iron Man. I think that Iron Man will be too thick for new readers to get into, so we will see a launch of an Ultimate Iron Man title to coincide with the movie. Not a bad idea, mind you. We will also see big pushes in the Avengers and Ultimates lines around the release.


Posted by bigdaddyhub2 on 2006-10-05 10:36:14
Doctor Strange
I have to agree, Dr. Strange: The Oath is the most surprising comic I picked up this week. I was expecting this to be a throw away purchase, I like to test the waters and pick up new titles that I am not familiar with, but after reading this issue I’m seriously excited about this series. I am not traditionally a Dr. Strange fan, but Vaughn has really made me interested, if other writers could keep the same angle I would like to see Strange more often.

Posted by frostfiend on 2006-10-05 11:21:22
Dr. Strange
Gee, Tom.

Thanks for grounding yet another bombastic Marvel idea in reality.

That's just what we needed. Marvel's lacking reality these days.

Though at least you got BKV to do it.

I suppose so long as we have both the X-Men and Hulk in space, I really can't complain, huh?

Posted by MattDiCarlo on 2006-10-05 14:09:35
A change goes too far...
...when it redefines past events in such a way that the characters' motivations are not what they originally appeared to be.

Bucky's alive? No problem. When they fought back in the early days of AVENGERS, Cap and Zemo both BELIEVED Bucky to be dead. I can reread AVENGERS #6 with modern knowledge and I don't have to reinterpret the characters' actions.

Mary Jane always knew that Peter was Spider-Man? This bugs the heck out of me. When MJ and Pete first met in AMAZING, the writer's intention was that MJ thought Peter was just a nerdy blind date. The retcon requires reinterpreting MJ's motivations for a previously written scene. I can no longer read that issue of AMAZING the same way. It's not just that the backstory is not what we thought it to be -- the character's on screen behavior has to be reinterpreted.

IMO, that's a change that goes too far.


Posted by bobmm on 2006-10-05 15:12:19
bobmm
That is a really interesting point, I have been re-reading a lot of old ASM lately (mostly because they are being reprinted everywhere all the sudden) and I am always wondering what MJ is really thinking.

For example, in Stan Lee Meets Spider-Man they reprinted ASM #87. It seemed to me like the whole issue MJ was kind of talking down on Peter and I just kept wondering WTF is her problem. However, really, it is my problem; Stan never had this "MJ knows" angle so I am reading it in a completely wrong context. From Stan’s angle on MJ, Peter’s erratic behavior without any good explanation would make this behavior more acceptable.

Long story short, retcon is a fine line, but as Tom has said earlier (forgive me if I summarize this wrong), we should not cling to old stories to prevent future stories. I do not really mind having these issues because it is the next issue I am looking forward to, not the 20-year-old issue.

PS, I might have sounded cynical about the reprints, I actually like them, I just think they are a little over priced which is another topic I will try to VERY briefly touch on. Giant-Size Wolverine as example, those reprints are old, thus I would assume the commission cost for the writer and artists has already been paid and absorbed, so to Marvel they are basically "free" content, yet I'm paying a heavy ($2) premium for them. I think that book should have been $3.50 or $3.99, $4.99 just seems bombastic.

Posted by frostfiend on 2006-10-06 08:33:16
Thank ye
Thanks for clearing up Elektra's return, Tom and Fetsur.

Posted by Gokitalo on 2006-10-07 01:13:05
Aunt May / Green Goblin / Dr. Strange
I forget to check in for a few days, and I find you've quoted me and responded to something I've said!

Yes, I can fully understand wanting to "correct" Aunt May's death, just as I can understand not wanting to kill her off in the first place. But once the story was already out there, such a preposterous correction was truly unfortunate. For Norman, it was even worse, in my opinion, for the fact that it was undoing a story that WAS a good idea the first time.

In regards to Norman being the only Goblin worth his salt... I always liked the Harry Osborn Goblin, personally. There was something about the "best friend/arch-enemy" dynamic that really worked well for me. Now, Harryw as also dead, so they would have had to undo a story to bring him back at the end of the clone saga... but that being said, the Death of Harry Osborn is just not as classic as the death of Harry. Many fewer readers (I think) have read Harry's death, and in general, it just seems like it would have been... more excusable.

Finally, I don't always agree with your weekly picks, but this time, you nailed it. Dr. Strange is not really a character I am particularly interested in, but I read this issue and was really pleased. It made me really care and be interested in bothe Strange and Wong in a way I have never really been. My favourite moment was when Strange is holding the pill bottle, and his hand is causing it to rattle... a very dramatic moment, and a great way to get across the scene. Vaughn is wonderful, and the art is great. This was my favourite comic of the week.

Posted by cracksh0t on 2006-10-08 11:35:50