Err ...
I'm not really a hardcore reader, I'd heard of this and when people mention it I know what they're talking about, but don't refer to the mainstream Marvel Universe as 616.
I disagree with you that labeling it 616 takes a degree of the real world grounding from it. I always liked the concept of a mainstream comic universe being one of many because to me it played into the scientific theory that our own Universe is only one of many. I think the 616 concept, rather than separating the Marvel Universe from it's grounding and throwing it more in the realm of science fiction helps to ground it (if only a little bit) in some solid scientific theory. There are a large number of Multiverse theories out there, the Marvel Universe takes that piece from the real world grounding and pushes it just like it does with genetic mutations and the X-Men.
When it comes to the bit about it being exclusionary, I agree with you, that degree of complexity put in front of new or not as hardcore readers will probably turn them off and make them feel like they don't share in the same type of camaraderie they really should when surrounded by fellow fans of the Fantastic Four.

Dig the blog, and absolutely love hearing your thoughts.
-Sean (uncle-sean.com)

Posted by seanmann on 2007-04-12 20:47:02
I can tell you...
...that 616 has already been used within the comics themselves (Exiles, for one example), so it's here to stay.

I wish the word police would get over it, and just adjust to the fact that new terms emerge in fandom from time to time. "Retcon", anyone?

Posted by CylverSaber on 2007-04-12 21:13:05
I'm With You Tom
I'm a fairly new reader, although I've been fascinated with Marvel characters ever since my very early years, it hasn't been until somehwat recently that I've begun really following different stories. The term "616" gets on my nerves as well, I know that up until a few months ago I had no clue what it meant, or what anyone who was using it was trying to say. Personally why can't we skip the fan made complications and focus on what matters. To me it's the Marvel Universe, plain, simple.

Thank's for sharing you're thoughts, and keep up the awesome work you guys are doing.

Posted by GoodGuysWearRed on 2007-04-12 21:25:40
Marvel U mirrors reality?
I couldn't agree with you more, this why it bothered me so much that the Prime Minister of Canada was not Stephen Harper in Omega Flight #1.

When Byrne was doing the book Trudeau was PM and that's who appeared as PM in Alpha Flight.

It was one of the things that made it cool, like when AF and the Xmen had there first big scrap in Calgary, the art and the references were right on the money. From TD square to the Calgary tower to the showdown at the Stampede grounds, it was like the Marvel Universe was visiting my city!

I hope Omega Flight isn't lazy in this regard (as the first issue tends to indicate), it is harmfull to the suspension of my disbelief and therfore my enjoyment of the product.

Don't get me wrong, I liked Omega Flight but I could have liked it more.

It's not that hard to figure out who the Prime Minister of Canada is.

Also, I enjoy your blog very much, you are dedicated to your craft.


Posted by chrisbanff on 2007-04-12 23:15:55
purpose rain
Accepting 616 to be the closest from the reality as we all know it ,is only a convention,
I personaly don't have any problems with the talent of someone to make me discover something, a new aspect of history,( it didn't interested me the same way before, I didn't seen any heroes in there ).
The concept of multiverses , the idea of alternative is the way to improve the existence of something else as an answer to some finale solution,what was the battlefield horse of K.Dick mostly all his life,nothing to compares with the outrageous using that had been done for years on the necks of multiverse's minorities.

They didn't deserve it.



Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-04-13 03:06:32
Well
As we now have AU's we have to call it something Earth one is a dc rip off and the "Mainstream MU" is annoying I hate the word mainstream, reminds me of other such phrases as "pop culture"

It does seem artificial though I agree, My ex step-dad (also a marvel fan) laughs as me when i use 616.

We need to come up with another name to use as well/instead not just bash the current designation

Posted by tobys on 2007-04-13 05:34:17
Yeah, I agree with tobys, we need a new word. It's how I seperate it from, say, Ultimates. I also like it, because I'm a big Alternate-Universe fan, like the fact that it's just this random number, suggests that it's not like DC "Earth-1, the key world in a million worlds", and that our universe isn't better than the rest. For example, in Exiles, it means that when they turn up in "Mainstream" it's nothing special, it's just another wacky alternate universe

I think it is a bit exclusionary, but at the same time, so's the forum demand for continuity matching to stuff from 1904.

Posted by deworde on 2007-04-13 06:56:22
A Sometime Necessary Evil
I never really heard the term until I started helping with the online Marvel wiki on this site. Since then I've found myself tempted to use the term in "normal" conversation, but I also feel terribly foolish using it. I think it's an okay designation when you're referring to multiple universes in a highly objective format such as the Handbooks or the online Wiki. But it does take away a lot from the delightful land of make believe we all want to dip into every once in awhile, and I certainly don't want to think of myself as an inhabitant of reality number #616. For the same reason we call our planet Earth, which actually means nothing, and is essentially synonymous with Home.

But you'll never fight the natural tendency for people to feel special because they know a picky designation that others don't, in conversation.

Posted by PseudoSherlock on 2007-04-13 06:57:16
Yes, and fix the Canadian PM. It's a slap in the face that you'll draw GB, but not this guy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:OfficialPhoto.jpg

Posted by deworde on 2007-04-13 07:01:11
I'm half and half on this. On the one hand, it's an awkward, puzzling term that derives from an extremely obscure piece of continuity (Alan Moore written or not) that wasn't even originally published by Marvel. It confuses the non-hardcores and, as you rightly point out, it was never again used until quite recently.

And on the other hand, it's a very useful piece of shorthand for distinguishing the original "Marvel Universe" in such a way that most fans seem to understand. And to be honest I don't really know how else I would normally describe it. I don't like referring to the "Marvel Universe" for the same reasons of realism described above (and, obviously, because the next question is "which"?).

What really annoys me though is that apparently some of the recent handbooks gave numbers for EVERY universe that's ever appeared in Marvel Comics, and they included the Ultimate Universe in that, even though Ultimate Marvel is supposed to exist separate to the rest of the Marvel line - and for that matter the science of its interdimensional structure is totally at odds with anything seen in other Marvel books.

It's that these tags seem to stick with those things on their profiles forever, and this irks me, just like Millar's lame aliases for the Secret Avengers (named after posters on his message board) are at the top of Captain America's profile on Wikipedia. There's no getting rid of these pieces of information...

Posted by Fetsur on 2007-04-13 09:26:06
Pah! I love the term. I read the Alan Moore stories when they first came out so I suppose I would love it but I certainly don't see how it diminishes 'our' MU. I doubt many other people know any other of the designations. If you hate it so much Tom, then why do you allow virtually every Handbook to be full of references to the multiverse?

Posted by bomaya on 2007-04-13 12:39:06
...unless there is another target? A military target?

Sorry Bomaya, it just needed that line to complete your post.


Posted by bigdaddyhub2 on 2007-04-13 21:04:42
Multiverses and our place in them may be science theory at this point but science fiction has the habit of sometimes becoming science fact and the odds of all the multiverses revolving around our actions is unlikely.

"We"(Being combined with the Marvel U) deserve to be called the 616, to me this makes our comic book "real world" seem more factual than saying we are the master multiverse that all others spring from, that's like saying that the Sun revolves around the Earth.

It's smart and humble to call it the 616. Especially when our true universe where you and I exist (should the multiverse actual exist as many scientist's currently believe including Hawking) is more likely to be Universe 999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999 than 1.

Posted by Jon Malin on 2007-04-14 23:46:41
It's your problem, Marvel
If you didn't want to give the universes numbers, you should have skipped universe hopping in the first place. All these characters crossing over with Exiles, Zombies, AoA. It's too hard to keep track of it all. If you could prevent your characters from moving from one Marvel U to another, the numbers would be less necessary. But here you'v got AoA Sabretooth running around pretty much everywhere, Zombie moving from one U to the next. I think the whole thing is pretty silly, but the numbers help us (even non-hardcore readers) keep track.

Posted by GnKoichi on 2007-04-15 10:01:26
Doesn't bother me, by and large.
Well, it doesn't. It is increasingly important in this ages of eXiles. Age of Apocalypse, Marvel Zombies, New Universe, NewuniverSAL, and the Ultimate Universe to have some way to clasify and refer to the universe we ACTUALLY see when we're not reading alternate universe titles.

And the Marvel Multiverse, it's guardian 'Roma' (And Merlyn before her), the realm of Otherworld from which it all flows has been established and embraced for a long time. True enough it may only truly have been mentioned in the pages of titles such as Excalibur, eXiles, or Fantastic Four, but in all honesty how many other titles regularly deal with alternate universes?

Posted by Captain 616 on 2007-04-15 19:32:59
I never had the feeling when I started reading Marvel comics in the late 80s/early 90s that it was grounded in the real world that much at all. There were fantastic elements at every turn whether we're talking FF, Thor, the X-Books or the Avengers, or even Spider-Man. Heck, my favorite DD run (the Kesel one) was around then and that was all sorts of over the top.

So I pretty much applaud any motion that distances the Marvel Universe from reality, because I think it's swung far too much in that direction over the last few years. If I want reality, I wouldn't be reading about superheroes.

Sorry, Tom. This is just more reason for me to babble on about Earth-616.

Posted by MattDiCarlo on 2007-04-16 08:50:43
mostly it just seems to make nice written shorthand too me, especially with both "regular" and "Ultimate" universes ongoing and the large number of other "alt" universes refered to frequently, much like "Age of Apocalypse" is frequently shortened to AoA... MU deosn't seem sufficiant, since that kind of encompases "everything" :p

Posted by artiepants on 2007-04-19 11:15:35
There's a Captain Britain?
Whoa.... what timeline am i living in.... theres a Captain Britian.... are there anymore Captains' i should know about?

Posted by Ironmon256 on 2007-04-20 10:01:42
A Deworde in your ear
Hey Deworde, what do you mean, ' . . . it's an awkward, puzzling term that derives from an extremely obscure piece of continuity (Alan Moore written or not) that wasn't even originally published by Marvel.'

Sorry, but while today's UK Marvel comics are published by Panini, back then Marvel UK was Marvel. Not Marvel US, but Marvel regardless. One company, two branches. Don't blame us Brits for fans and Marvel US writers picking up on the term.

As for Tom's point, the Marvel reality is ment to be pretty much the same as ours? Maybe in 1961, but the MU (see, I never said 616) folk have seen massive superhero and villain battles, alien attacks, heck, they've even all blinked out of existence once or twice. No way is the MU akin to our reality anymore, there are visual and cultural similarities, yeah, but the political and emotional landscape is a lot different. The 'Just like real-life' boat sailed a long time ago - sunk by an attacking bunch of Skrulls, probably.

Posted by Volthoom on 2007-04-20 20:16:07
Gone into the multiverse
Hello chaps, I posted a response last night, but it's been removed. Roma's doing?

Posted by Volthoom on 2007-04-21 08:29:21
It depends...
I can see both sides of this one. I entirely understand why creators don't use the term, and I'm not sure why it's quite so popular with fans at the moment. "Marvel Universe" is a much better description (and also a brand name).

But I think Earth-616 does serve a purpose and has been used well in stories. Personally, I don't see it harming the realism of the MU, either.

The Avengers might talk about the "Squadron Supreme's world" during a story, which works fine. For those characters, in that context, descriptions like that seem to make a lot of sense.

But with Excalibur, Exiles and other books using many different alternate worlds, it seems to get clumsy when there's no simple description of a world. And it would seem a little if cosmic characters (Roma, for example) started talking about the "Marvel Universe earth" or the "Newuniversal world".

From that point of view, I think numbering makes sense as an in-character thing, something used by those Marvel characters who habitually tamper with multiple worlds.

Having said all that, outside of those multiple world stories, what's the point of using it? It's not needed for clarity in the average Avengers/FF/Spider-Man story, so why should it turn up in those settings? And generally speaking, it doesn't... so I'm really not sure why fans have started using it so often.

Posted by gelf on 2007-04-21 12:35:41
From Earth 815
I disagree with DeWorde that the 616 term is from a comic not even published by Marvel. Sure, the comics featuring Marvel characters in the UK these days, both reprint and originated, are produced by Panini under licence. but back in the Seventies, Eighties and Nineties Marvel UK was wholly owned by Marvel US. Captain Britain has always been a copyrighted Marvel character living in Marvel's regular continuity.

As for Tom's suggestion that Marvel Earth is similar enough to the readers' that we should consider it one step removed, maybe in 1961, when the FF was a-borning, but since then it's become filled with heroes and villains, had lots of contact with alien civilisations, been reality-altered a few times - heck, there was a Dr Strange story in which everyone on the planet died. That's going to create a bit of a psychic shock, whether people much remember it or not. And the political landscape is getting less like our own every day.

Given all this, what's wrong with considering it a parallel world to our own, rather than our own with some kind of secret history?

Posted by Volthoom on 2007-04-22 10:56:11
I never understood your hatred for the term. Just because you don't personally like the term, doesn't make it some sort of archaic designation that only super-geeks are aware of. It's been refrenced numerous times since the Alan Moore/Captain Britain stories. And with Exiles, it's become a well recognized designation for the "Mainstream Marvel Universe". It's no more geeky than any of the other Marvel terminology. Like Adamantium, Vibranium, Cerebro, the X-Gene. Honestly, if it bugs you so much... you need to just ignore it and not let it rub you the wrong way.

Posted by Beast on 2007-04-22 14:32:01
616 is bad?
From Marvel.com:
http://www.marvel.com/universe/Marvel_Universe

If you check out that link than apparently fanboys aren't the only ones that use the 616 designation :)

I personally have no problem with it. There's thousands of readers who have no idea about a lot of things in the "Marvel Universe." So what? Look it up. The internet is great for that. Need an example of how easy it is? Here ya go...found these in under a minute with google:

http://www.answers.com/topic/earth-616
http://www.comicvine.com/earth-616/40920/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth-616

Now since it's part of cannon why not use it? Not just "ancient" canon but recent cannon. If you don't like it then you just don't like it. Fine. But don't make me feel like something is wrong with me because I use it. I know that it wasn't your intention to do that but it sort of came across that way to me.

As far as using it detracting from the realism of the comics we read, well...it isn't real. It's awesome that they are made to feel as real as possible but I'm under no illusions that this "universe" is real for a second. Sure it's fun to pretend its real to temporarily escape "real-life" reality but I at no time think that people are flying about with powers on THIS earth LOL.

So in this civil war I am pro-616. :) But if I never see the term ever again it's no sweat off my back. It's not THAT important to me. But it is a lot quicker to type "616" than it is to type
M A R V E L U N I V E R S E.

Keep up the good work thanks for listening,
Rick

Posted by phoenixfrc on 2007-04-22 19:18:10
One question...
If "those of us actually working on the books virtually never use the term", then why does the The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Alternate Universes 2005, refers to the mainstream Marvel Universe as Earth 616?



Posted by rabblerouser on 2007-04-23 06:13:19
Marvel Universe IS everything Marvel
Tom,

For someone like you I can understand it'd erk you just a bit to hear something that (to you) encompasses everything "Marvel" referred to generically. I've heard the term used loosely among friends and family who've loyally read Marvel comics for years, however 90% of the time none of them knew what 616 meant or where it came from. You were right when you said “It's the sort of term that means absolutely nothing to any reader who isn't dyed-in-the-wool--even long-time readers don't know where the tag comes from or what it signifies.” Now I feel ... educated.

>> rabblerouser

Just to pose a rebuttal and to spark a theory to that question: perhaps what Tom means is that it’s not a term commonly known. The definition is completely different from its origins. Earth 616, per Captain Britain, is but one of many different earths – and that there are many paralleled universes with many different earths that house many different Captain Britain’s (and all other Marvel Characters) living on it. Perhaps what Tom is trying to say that Marvel Universe is not Alan’s Captain Britain’s 616, because Marvel Universe is not one of many different universe’s with many different versions of many different Marvel characters – but Marvel Universe IS everything Marvel. Perhaps the handbook’s definition is trying to say that Marvel Universe is everything Marvel, but (as previously stated) its definition is completely different from its origins.

Also, I always knew 616 to mean everything marvel (at heart). :)

-gr

Posted by gamblerisk on 2007-04-23 11:41:45
Deleted Posts...


Same here. Apperantly Tom doesn't like seeing anyone with a differing opinion. But that's not really a surprise. Instead of addressing those who make a valid point that disagrees, it's easier to "Scarlet Witch" them out of existance.

Posted by Beast on 2007-04-23 18:28:21
I really dont mind the term!!
Its not just Alan Moore, but I believe Chris Claremont uses the terms in his writing for "Exiles" basically the team travels to various realitys 616, 317, 512 and so on. You know it never really bothered me because you get to see these various realities and the WHAT IF'S (pun intended) if it is a code between the writers? I say bring it on lets see where it goes, these guys have won awards for there creativity and I think we should trust them. If there introducing one big huge idea in marvel this could be exciting, and we could be witnessing a turning point in how writers are conducting themselves.....like I said If all this is true then Im finding it exciting.

Posted by terciera on 2007-04-27 01:57:50
616,617,618,ect...
I personally like the idea of each universe having a designation. It smacks of the trend in astro-physics to number everything. If stars and galaxies can have numbers, why NOT whole universes? It just makes the idea of a multiverse of worlds more believable, IMO. Now, how it got to be number 616, is a question I'd like to learn the answer to someday, but it's not overly important. I'm a comic-geek, but not THAT anal about it!

Posted by MsMarvelDuckie on 2008-04-08 19:23:07