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2007-05-29 16:08:05

FANTASTIC FOUR: THE END (NOT 616...)

Alan Davis sent me the following information concerning the origins of the 616 designation for the Marvel Universe:

616 is an alternate, and some say older, 'sign of the beast', 666. It has some basis in Greek numerology (ZAZ?) but I don't recall the details. Although credited to Alan Moore, like much of the other Captain Britain folklore it was in place before he joined the book. (In actual fact the only significant addition Alan and I co-created was the Fury.) Jim Jaspers, the Crazy Gang, Saturnyne, the Omniversal organisation (Avante Guarde) Captain UK, etc were all conceived by Paul Neary or Dave Thorpe. Most of the more classic elements were Paul's (he had worked on an Arthurian Black Knight strip for Marvel UK some years earlier that utilised Captain Britain and introduced Jackdaw). Dave Thorpe, who wasn't a fan of the modern superhero genre, was responsible for most of the more madcap or satirical elements--such as recording his opinion of the Marvel Universe with the designation 616.

The irony is that the Multiverse was created out of Marvel UK's desire to use Marvel US characters--which wouldn't have been tolerated at the time. Setting the stories on an alternate Earth offered the opportunity to use any of the Marvel stars without concern for continuity--but Dave had no love for Marvel characters and Alan was offered SWAMP THING before he had finished his first arc so we never took advantage of the possibility.

Thanks, Alan!

More later.

Tom B

Of Course
Well of course it has a peculiar, questionable origin! If it was decided on by every fan who ever read a comic, we wouldn't be able to argue back and forth about it on the internet.

However, thank you Tom for finally clearing up the origin of it from the source(ish). At least you've solved some of the internet arguments...

But it being the "Sign of the Beast" isn't really going to endear itself to many Marvel readers. Though it certainly makes it more amusing.

Posted by PseudoSherlock on 2007-04-13 13:17:14

Great to hear from Alan Davis on this topic, as the term 616 came to its greatest prominence in the Mainstream Marvel U during his (with and without Chris Claremont) runs on Excalibur. The idea of alternate, divergent realities and timelines is nothing new for Marvel and is at the heart of some of its finest stories. (Not many stories have had more influence on the MU as "Days of Future Past")
I think that, from an editorial standpoint, the edict that Marvel stories should be written as if they take place in the real world is a good one. It helps readers to relate to the characters and events while setting you apart from the other guys. The tagline "Your Universe" is great branding and says it all with two little words.
However, the notion that Marvel stories take place in the real world is poppycock, and not because these are fictional. This notion works well for each individual story but when those stories add up to form a shared universe and continuity, it breaks down pretty quickly. Its a laudable goal, but ultimately the whole is less than the sum of its parts. Plus, the Marvel Universe is not without its fair share of fictional locales, Latveria and Madripoor spring to mind.

The notion that the Marvel Universe is the real universe makes for fun stories, but the more diehard the fan the more likely we are to see through the veil.

As far as 616 is concerned, its in your books enough to be cannon, though it has no real use outside of drawing distinction between the mainstream MU and the countless other alternate realities in Marvel books, so I hope you're not loosing any sleep over it.

Posted by leeboone on 2007-04-13 14:45:28

Don't forget Genosha, Savage Lands, Wakanda, the hidden lands, Monster Island from FF, and the various made up middle east countries. I love the fact that MU is real world-like when it needs to be. It makes for characters like DD to have the grit they need. But when taken together, the "world outside your window" mentality is destroyed pretty quickly.

Here's a question...would any of YOU actually want to live in the MU?

Posted by bigdaddyhub2 on 2007-04-13 21:01:56

alternative seems to be the way,
speaking of C.Claremont 's run on Excalibur or the whole universe that John Byrne tried to build on Alpha Flight, it's not I don't like others characters but yeah I'm not reading Alpha Flight to see all of the rest of the MU passing by, each tittles got his own universe within the MU and that's part of the fun .
I can't read everything but as place looking unreal ( a writer's trick ? ), I liked very much the 2099 universe, problem is what it could have more that the MU as we know it now doesn't have, excepting the worse ( like "Days of the future past " ).
Who got a problem with anticipation ? ( but don't tell it doesn't exist .)

Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-04-14 07:12:25

The whole "Number of the Beast" thing was a way to talk about the Roman emperor at the time (Nero) without getting into trouble.

616 = Nero
666 = Neron (The Greek form of the name.)

Posted by John_Shil on 2007-04-15 10:08:26

Fictional lands
Why do those fictional lands differentiate the MU from the Real U that much?

I'm sure the average person doesn't even know about the Savage Land, the Hidden Lands, Attilan or Monster Island. Additionally, I'm sure the average person in the MU couldn't find Madripoor, Wakanda, or Latveria on the map.

Posted by IanZL on 2007-04-15 15:35:03

I'm just glad we've found a topic that gets Tom all 'fanboy rant'ish instead of him talking about OTHER peoples fanboy rants.

I'm down with the 616!

Posted by NewChad on 2007-04-16 03:06:49

Well give it a couple of years and you may find that every other post doesn't contain the unholy triumvirate of canon, retcon and 616.

Posted by darrenmdr1 on 2007-04-16 05:57:44

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