reason?
Comics are about characters and DC/Marvel have locked up all of the classic characters. We care about the characters the most because they literally have been there all our lives. Until someone takes Superman, Batman, Cap, Spidey, Flash, Wolverine, DD away from DC or Marvel, there won't be a serious 3rd party.

Posted by bigdaddyhub2 on 2007-04-17 16:52:10
True, but...
You're absolutely right, bigdaddyhub2, that comics are about characters, and that it would take one heck of a compelling new universe to spark the requisite interest in a third party.

But...

1) There are plenty of other great properties, albeit non-superhero ones, that have managed to sell fairly well. Star Wars has always been Dark Horse's bread and butter, and as evidenced by the top ten debut of Dark Horse's Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Either of those properties could, in theory, be expanded into full comic book universes if somebody really wanted to make the investment (and that doesn't just mean how many titles you publish each month but the caliber of the artists, writers and editors you can secure). The point is, it's not like DC and Marvel have rights to every character anybody's ever going to want to read.

2) There are also some pretty amazing creators out there. I know it's en vogue to trash talk Bendis or JMS or who ever else is "wreaking havoc" with the history of your favorite character, but if you look at the healthy sales comics are enjoying right now you have to admit that the naysayers are a vocal minority. There is a lot of top-notch talent in comics right now, and many of these guys already have creator-owned titles that actually could support a multitude of books filling out their worlds (Astro City, Fables, heck, there's a few spinoffs of Invincible I wouldn't mind checking out every month).
I know the new company has been attempted many times in the past, and it always ends up in failure. But I really think that the time is right (or will be soon) that, provided you had the startup capital, if you took the top three writers, editors and artists currently exclusive to Marvel and the same set of guys from DC, locked them in a room and told them "Build me a 3rd Comic Book Company" that there's no way everybody wouldn't be chomping at the bit to see what those guys came up with. And judging by their past work, there's no way in hell everybody wouldn't keep coming back.

Posted by knaveofkrypton on 2007-04-17 17:40:28
Didn't that very scenario happen when Image first started? I mean, they took seven of the top studs of comics and it didn't last. I think that if Jim Lee could have taken Superman and McFarlane could have taken Spiderman to Image, it would have taken off. Here's the chicken and egg thing: Would Jim Lee have ever been big if it weren't for Superman? Would McFarlane have ever been huge if it weren't for Spider-Man? Successful comic writers and artists are acclaimed for elevating the established characters. Without those established characters (and there are only about 5 that matter), these writers wouldn't be able to sell.

Ergo-no third company. Unless Timely buys itself back from Marvel and takes Cap, Namor and Human Torch with them.

Posted by bigdaddyhub2 on 2007-04-17 21:19:21
I definitely agree with you that recognizable, iconic characters are basic for the success of a major comic book company, and their absence is what led to the collapse of entities such as Image or Valiant. However, I can think of several A-List creators who managed to become big outside of the established major characters (Alan Moore springs to mind first, since Watchmen was what propelled him to the forefront of the 80s comics Renaissance and while that was based on previous characters they were pretty much unrecognizable to the average reader, and Joe Quesada got his first major exposure drawing Ninjak and X-O Manowar, who I'll go ahead and posit is one of the most awesome comic book characters of all time).

I don't disagree at all with your comparisons and observations about Image. The early nineties was a very different time for comics, though. That was, for lack of a better term, the age of the artist, when flashy splash pages and a slate of new and gritty characters that, while fairly entertaining when remembered with nostalgia, had little diversity amongst themselves and no real staying power.

We now live in an age of writers, when story reigns supreme, when readers demand character-driven tales. And while this fad will pass just as the flashy early 90s did before it, I think that the current crop of comics creators are more cut out to create lasting, iconic characters than the Image gang.

Sure, there are only 5 characters who are widely known to the public at large, but the public at large aren't the people buying comic books. Comics readers shell out money for titles about Spidey, Wolverine and Batman, but they also buy titles featuring weird reinventions of old characters (like what Bendis has been doing with Spider-Woman or what Grant Morrison has done for so many obscure golden age characters). Comics readers are open to new ideas provided they trust the creators delivering them. All I'm saying is I've never trusted the top creators at either major company as much as I do right now.

Posted by knaveofkrypton on 2007-04-17 21:48:30
I don't think it's a coincidence...
...that the last time there was a viable third-place contender was when there was more than one distributor.

The structure of the direct market simply doesn't allow for anyone new to grab a piece of the pie. Of course, in the bookstore market, one can argue the manga publishers are the real competition, but that's another story.

CrossGen had the funding and the talent, but even with all that they couldn't crack Diamond's system. I think if you're ever going to see another major American comics publisher, it's going to be when some existing big player from another medium (be it Disney, Fox, Viacom, Universal, or Sony) decides it's worth their time and money to go all out in establishing themselves in the comic market. Given comics current status as an idea factory for Hollywood, that's not inconceivable, but I don't see it being right around the corner.

Posted by CylverSaber on 2007-04-18 01:20:21
after a good old chest-thumping....
.... nothing better than rounding around a circle of fire, isn't it ?
I agree with bigdaddyhub2 about this characters " who had been there " all of our lives, and I personally thank Mr Morrison for his approach upon old ones of the DC Universe who provides wonderful stories, too...

Tom, I don't understand, do you really want apocalypse ?

It is told on the Avatar web-site that in less than one year, you won't recognize Avatar, and I don't know why but I think the guys are serious...


Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-04-18 06:54:46
CylverSaber, I absolutely agree that it would take the startup capital of an "existing big player" to establish a third major comics publisher, not only in order to break into Diamond but also for the many other costs of production and merchandising.

However, I'm not completely convinced that the current comics distribution structure would prevent a third player from rising. Diamond is in the business of making money, and I have no doubt that if there were a third major comics company they'd make more money since more comics would be sold, just as more comics are sold now than if Marvel or DC were the only major publisher.

I don't know if I agree with you that CrossGen was ever in the running for the number three spot; it's policy to keep the books relatively separate from one other, the complex fantasy/sci fi nature of the Sigilverse and, as bigdaddyhub2 would probably point out, the lack of any iconic heroes leads me to think that CrossGen was always a little too obscure to make it big.

Posted by knaveofkrypton on 2007-04-18 08:29:41
Three? How about two?
I think another major problem is that we barely have a two party system right now. DC and Marvel just don't seem to be competing anymoe. Not with each other, anyways. Are you really trying to grab the same group? It doesn't seem to be the case. There are Marvel readers and there are DC readers. There are some who just read everything, but they read EVERYTHING so winning them to one side isn't really a victory. I think there have been some failed attempts to pull readers from one brand to another (Sentry, anyone?) but really it's not going to make a big difference. Marvel and DC at this point are just competing with themselves to keep the market they have.

Posted by GnKoichi on 2007-04-18 08:56:42
The Total Package
I think one of the reasons that there isn't a third place competitor these days is that both the big houses compete in multiple media arenas. Without movies, TV, action figures, board games, card games, video games, another competitor would have a tough time ingraining their characters into society itself. Although someone mentioned Disney or Sony (for example) stepping up, and that might be possible as they would have the money to put in that kind of showing on all fronts. Otherwise, they'd have to be a small company with great artists/writers and be fighting uphill for MANY years before they could even try to compete in other media. Even then, would people show up to watch the movies or buy the games?

Also, I think one reason is that DC and Marvel both fill an essential niche in the super hero field. DC is more fantastical and mythical, while Marvel is more realistic and tragic. In other words, the old dicotomy between Comedy and Tragedy. True, that's a generalization, and they individually trade hats back and forth, but that's the basic feeling of the two. A third would have to find some sort of niche that isn't otherwise filled. The problem with that is that most of those niches are for different demographics, such as super-realistic and adult, or totally goofy and cartoony. A comic company could do well in these some-what untapped areas, but couldn't compete on a level playing field with the more complete DC and Marvel.

The only thing I could think that would be completely untapped and still garner all the same buyers would be a world full of superheros like Batman and the Punisher who were all non-powered, normal people trying to be heros. You could create an entire universe full of these people and it would lend a different, but similiar, edge to it. Possibly enough to compete with the big two...

Posted by PseudoSherlock on 2007-04-18 09:38:02
to answer PseudoSherlock,take a look to the Moonstone catalogue, nobody knows what will happen if all the top writers and artists suddenly worked on Mandrake , the Phantom or Silver Star (created by Jack Kirby, and nobody wants to do something with - -),and it will sure take time to build another mythology, with new and strong enough archetypes that could compete with the Marvel and DC Universe ( who are actually evolving pretty well each others, and there are still things to be done... uranium in the oceans, anyone ? )


Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-04-18 10:59:53
You wouldn't call Tokyopop a big company?

Sure, they don't make the smaller comics, but they still make lots of larger comics that people love. They just target a different share of the market, right? More young females than older males. When DC launch Minx, there might be more of a play for the other demographics, I guess.

Posted by Undergirl on 2007-04-18 12:41:45
Undergirl,
You might be right about Tokyopop. Are DC and Marvel looking at TP like GM and Ford looked at Honda 30-40 years ago?



Posted by bigdaddyhub2 on 2007-04-18 14:11:44
Image
Invincible is really a great product from image and if it could branch out into one big medium such as movie (like animated and DVD release only, like the Iron Man movie or Ultimate Avengers). But really, invincible is the most iconic non DC/Marvel character out there

Posted by thejew011 on 2007-04-21 20:49:21
Sony
I think Sony would be a great 3rd party. They already have great characters in there video games, God of War, Ratchet and clank, Jak and DAxtar. No only do they have there own property they could create into comics but also could be a way to find out if a idea is going to work before spending the millions on making the game.
Othere Video gamer devolpers could do this also like EA or like they already said Disney.
But it is hard to compete with Marvel and DC since they just have so many characters that are well known. But the Video game industry could pull together to make some interesting comics of there characters.
I would also look at as a way to test the waters before spending the money in a video game.

Posted by spidey0402 on 2007-04-30 17:13:01