Thanks
Thanks for bringing these pages to my attention again, Tom. I had read the original stories back in the day, and similarly felt that Sinnott's inks were far superior. But looking at them again now, some two decades later, I can more clearly see the tonal differences that are in play. With that last page, in particular, I think Baker brings a bit more gravity to the characters' faces.

(That being said, I don't think I could ever knock Sinnott inking the FF!)

What I think is equally fascinating here, too, are the differences in Glynis Oliver's and Christie Scheele's coloring. Particularly in the last panel of that second page. They take completely opposite approaches to focusing the readers' attention. It'd be interesting to see Oliver's colors over Baker's inks there to see if that would reinforce what she was attempting to do visually.

Posted by SKleefeld on 2007-06-13 15:33:12
Huh
I never really paid much attention to the specifics of the comics I read when I was young, so this is very fascinating. I actually prefer the Sinnott inking here. It gives the figures more of a depth or roundness. The inks done by Mr. Baker look brighter and the figures seem to bleed into the background more.

Strangely, I noticed that the inkers seemed to be responsible for the shadows cast by the characters. Is that true across the board? The pencillers don't have anything to do with that? And how much shading does a penciller put in, as it seems that both inkers had completely different shading?

Though I suppose these could be examples of a bygone system, I'm curious what is still common.

And yes, thanks for bringing these up! They're really interesting.

Posted by PseudoSherlock on 2007-06-13 15:54:11
...I'm asking instead if Kyle Baker's inking was a liitle more accentued by computer's contrast modulation ( ),and was no-more as Tom said " shadow-filled ", I think he could compete with Joe Sinott's inking, despite his young age, really, a little more darker and you'd have something expressionistic enough to compare to Ho Che Anderson's KING...

( i still love my baby )


Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-06-13 16:01:17
...answering to Pseudo, and had read "The cow-boy Wally Show ", I dare to say that all Kyle Baker is in Starfox page 1 panel 3....

Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-06-13 16:08:03
as in the expression of She-Hulk page 2 panel 2

Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-06-13 16:09:53
....Sue Richards and Starfox page 3....

Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-06-13 16:10:53
Hey!
I hadn't noticed that. The inking on She Hulk's hair from Sinnott looks so much more...textured. It really brings it out to look more like human hair that happens to be green. Unfortunately, though comic hair that's bright red, purple, or green looks nice, it can easily look bizarre and unrealistic. Especially in real life. But Sinnott gives it that nice highlighted look that can actually be pulled off on real hair.

Posted by PseudoSherlock on 2007-06-13 16:54:26
Coloring
Both inking styles work well, with the Sinnott inks appealing more to my personal tastes, if forced to choose one or the other. The coloring is what really jumps out at me though. The coloring on the Sinnott pages is much better, in my opinion. Very interesting to see the two different takes side by side like this!

Posted by spiderseppy on 2007-06-13 17:37:43
dear Pseudo-Sherlock,
with all respect,
comic-book is by definition UN-realistic,
and Joe Sinott, closer to Jack Kirby' inking style and, by the way, not so far from a Charles Burns ( especially onto "bLACK HOle " ) use the so-called "ligne claire " style who actually made the inkers looking like tracers ,
at last I think that is one of the most difficult artistic choice,
anyway it's a convention, and I tend to think that by the way Kyle Baker is the less unrealistic,
besides this that's okay, I know that nobody loves me....

Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-06-13 17:56:02
about color
I'd rather say that the coloring on Joe Sinott inks are more homogenic and pertinent, and the one on Baker's are almost too retro-pulp,

maybe a " negative effect" ( black and white reversed ), or a patchwork of collages like the FF 51 issue on Digital when Reed enter the Negative Zone would have fit the Kyle Baker' style on page 3 ...

Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-06-14 03:11:53
hot notapotatoe
besides I had an opinion about what a cover can do.
I didn't read HFH 13 but had seen the cover,
I think at 15 I would have had an hormons attack,and it is problematic because some people can enjoy what it is shown.
Arguing that it is sexist is not enough;an advertising can be considered as sexist when men and women are exhibited with sexuals stereotypes disturbing the established sex equality, when they represents any kind of violence or domination, according on this brand-new lawalty it works also when a person is directed with provocative postures only in a decorative intention, so this is the old poster problem; I rather see the problem as described in Dan Simmon's " CARRION'S COMFORT " when domination is a proof of Talent ( pity that I didn't finish it... don't forget to blame my ex )
what makes laugh no one I hope ( always, always blaming the ex ...one thing that I'd learn for sure ) wich is the same problem with the works of De Sade, and with the hentais,horror movies,
I think personnally that's nothing is wrong until there is abuse, and I was glad to see these 3 man-eaters at last for one time not kicking big nazis, jealous I was of their mature and muscled lovers,
it is not that I like infliging pain to some one, but I don't like to be replaced neither...

Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-06-14 05:57:15
hem
wanted to say "(...) when abuse is a proof of talent " instead of " (...) when domination is..."

Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-06-14 06:01:36
and
no I don't have a gun
and
no I don't need a translator

Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-06-14 06:08:01
a french afternoon
as if domination and abuse were the only way,
find the woman you want and don't interest her, this is real madness and pain...



Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-06-14 06:14:03
hey
nobody's here at this time...
I see new opportunities...

Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-06-14 06:15:14
maybe I can pitch a plot ...
or two

Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-06-14 06:16:33
what was the problem with my " about color " anyway ?

Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-06-14 06:17:58
it's all so quiet...

Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-06-14 06:18:25
yeah




I think I like this place

Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-06-14 06:18:58
I hope that I didn't irritate Pseudo with the unrealistic inking talk section...
he didn't replies....

Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-06-14 06:22:42
hope he's okay....

Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-06-14 06:23:06
it's like bigdaddyhub2,
and Fetsur,

nobody talks to me anymore....

Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-06-14 06:24:07
...


Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-06-14 06:25:05
goodbye ?

Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-06-14 06:25:19
Okay
Ramblings aside, of course comics are unrealistic. But the key to something like that is to make it appear as realistic as possible to aid the reader's suspension of disbelief. Otherwise, they're going to be painfully aware that they're reading a fictional book of colored pictures.

Pointing it out didn't bother me a bit. I just wasn't around to post this morning.

Posted by PseudoSherlock on 2007-06-14 10:41:34
it's all fables...
hope they will never do it theirselves...please, keep secret as possible that the museums are not all dead.I'm vegan, anyway.


Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-06-14 11:07:15
anyway
I mean, just in case...

Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-06-14 11:32:42
Is everybody out there ?


sorry
couldn't resist....

Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-06-14 11:34:00
inker's contributions
I don't know what happened to Tom's subject for discussion... I wanted to say that Joe's got sooo many more pages under his belt than Kyle, that to compare the two would almost unfair. Joe was a master of his tools, in a day where to edit an inker would create a mess. India ink, crow quills, brushes, and Kohinor art pens wielded in the hands of masters brought everything to the story in the pre-digital age. The linework art created with an inker's tools can never be recreated with the software employed for those purposes today.
-Kevin

Posted by kevin316 on 2007-06-14 11:35:16
c'mon
sure, I've heard that in Will Eisner's studios, they were playing ( upon a paper big as a wall ) to the best straight line on hand,but you can amplify an inking page even with a copy machine, even if it's upon celluloid...
as for industrials crafts to use as background textures you just have to scratch, or use scisors and glue....!( Look at Breccia senior early works -Mort Cinder, the Eternaut-...),
I could spend hours talking about the way Chris Bacchalo used copy machine on his early works too trough Sam Kieth still using it too..
ideological that's what it is,
there weren't the tools but the ideas were already there.
Joe Sinott, with all respect, is a lot in the Kirby school, as Baker appears to be himself with ...freestyling.


Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-06-14 12:06:31
it's interesting to could take a look to both of them as an inking lesson.
Baker freestyling is a cool one, and if he had a little of the weight that Sinott give in the backgrounds, nobody knows...
so what an inker is doing is sometimes putting something who isn't here at first...


Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-06-14 12:20:54
... and assume it....
Mike Allred was doing something close to Jack Kirby and Breccia on X-Statix,
there were here and here photos irrupting in the backgrounds, becoming the background, the characters themselves seemed to feel more real.

Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-06-14 12:29:57
Tom
What is a comic that comes to mind as being altered most significantly from the intent of the pencils to being inked? And in that case did the inks help or hinder the work?



Posted by bigdaddyhub2 on 2007-06-14 16:01:39
oh

Posted by bigdaddyhub2 on 2007-06-14 16:01:56
and...

Posted by bigdaddyhub2 on 2007-06-14 16:02:09
stop...

Posted by bigdaddyhub2 on 2007-06-14 16:02:51
annoying

Posted by bigdaddyhub2 on 2007-06-14 16:03:06
us, potatoe!

Posted by bigdaddyhub2 on 2007-06-14 16:03:22
I'll see...

Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-06-15 02:30:41
what...

Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-06-15 02:30:54
I can d...

Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-06-15 02:31:12
sure
I want Kansas.

Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-06-15 12:09:41
cool

Posted by Blue Surfer on 2007-06-15 12:53:08
thank you
im a comic artist myself (im going to have a table at wizard world chicago in artsist alley) and I was really wondering the significance of style in inkers. Many of them seem to have different styles, but I always belived that they basically just traced the pencils, and that they had a mundane job. But now I realize that sometimes, the inker does the job of making the peice look even better, depending on their style, which is possible to incorporate in the drawing, as I now see. Thanks Breevort. Over and out.

Posted by DyPunga on 2007-06-15 13:22:22
I, for one, agree with bigdaddyhub2 bout the potatoe.

Posted by MarvelGenius on 2007-06-15 15:50:10
.........They're delicous.

Posted by MarvelGenius on 2007-06-15 15:50:37
Oh lordy where's the greats when you NEED 'em
Why are you single-handedly DESTROYING marvel comics Joe???What did this company do to you that made you decide to foul up everything Stan and Jack created?!?!?! More importantly, why are YOU fans letting HIM?!?!?!?!? I thought the reason that Galactus was omitted from the movie was to save money, NOPE.1. Wrong there, as you obviously spent a pretty penny on that RIDICULOUS storm cloud. 2. Silver Surfer could never single handedly destroy Galactus- unlike how you've single handedly thrown this whole company down the toilet. 3. I have to thank you, cause now I'll never have to wonder what working for you would have been like, I ALREADY know.4. Our comics are set aflame, as I've convinced all the persons on our street to never go Marvel again. Until a) You're FIRED. or b) You've passed.

Stan please take it back!!!!!!!!

NMME(no more marvel ever)

Posted by dont go there on 2007-06-16 01:32:12
This blog was helpful in letting me understand the actual job an inker does. As Brevoort put it, I thought that the job of an inker was simply to trace the lines a penciller made to make them appear more rough and noticable when the color comes into the art. Obviously I understand things differently now. I was also wondering what finishers and breakdowns meant (as Slatares and Tex do in Ghost Rider). Now I know what that means also...all in all a very hepful blog

Posted by s05bf0d4 on 2007-06-17 10:13:34
to genius
your problem

Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-06-18 02:24:28
I remember, back in the 'seventies, I actually used to buy certain books if they were inked by certain inkers. Tom Palmer and Klaus Janson are the two that immediately spring to mind. Janson, in particular, was always impressive, especially when inking Gil Kane. And Tom Palmer's work with Gene Colan was fantastic. A good inker should bring something special to the art. It's never just about tracing.

Posted by joe bloke on 2007-06-18 16:21:25
All in One Artists?
This just illustrates how different inking can make a page. So i was just wondering about artist who do it all. Is that a rarity? I know Alex Maleev is a three-in-one doing pencils, ink, and color. And would artist like to do that but it just takes too much time.

Posted by LittleMarvelGirl on 2007-06-20 19:42:08
Brian Bolland's on record as being particularly shy of inkers and colourists ( he hated the colours for The Killing Joke, and has never made a secret of his disappointment with Terry Austin's inks on Camelot 300 ).

Posted by joe bloke on 2007-06-23 11:29:19
just about backgrounds
I have to say that for myself Sinnott's backgrounds are better. They have more depth and really give the feeling of space and texture...
Baker's are fine...hell still enjoyable but I really love the Kirby feel of the Sinnott work...the skrull's armor, the hallway in that scene that stretches back to the window in that far background, the weight that he gives the bomb in the last page...yeah...more my preference...

Yeah, LittleMarvelGirl's question is an interesting one. Is the amount of pencil work and color a mitigating factor in an artist's decision to ink? If a book's art is built on the dominance of shadows and dark through inks, does that make it easier (relatively) for an artist to take on multiple parts of a page's construction or is it just an aspect of what an artist feels like he/she is capable of accomplishing?

Posted by fellwalker on 2007-06-24 11:48:33