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Civil War Battle Strategy
2007-07-24 16:05:10

Uncorrected art for Page 18 of #1

Continuing our trek through the formative stages of the CIVIL WAR crossover.

At this point, with the first issue more-or-less written (though it would go through a couple more drafts as Mark tweaked and tightened certain sequences and dialogue) another creative retreat had been scheduled, where we would hopefully nail the ending, and work out all of the assorted spin-out projects, and changes to the Marvel U. This was the retreat at which Joss Whedon arrived to Solomon-like give us the final answer after we'd argued around the ending of the series for many, many hours.

In any case, heading into that retreat, I compiled the following list of elements we needed to figure out in order to move forward, and also attached Mark's outline of what he saw the spin-out plan achieving:

CIVIL WAR ELEMENTS WE NEED TO RESOLVE:

THE BEGINNING

Are we doing the “fake” Thor at the end of CIVIL WAR #2?

Are we perhaps assigning too many characters to sides too soon—especially with the concerns about characters such as Moon Knight and Daredevil

THE MIDDLE

Spider-Man’s identity reveal: When does it occur, and in what book? How does this all play out

How and when does Thor come into the picture—how is he introduced? Do we have any information on what this new Thor will look like, and how he’ll act on the page?

How do we bring in the new Gravity Captain Marvel? Will this seem like just another random element that gets thrown out without much explanation?

THE ENDING

How do we punch up the ending, unify Cap and Iron Man at least for a moment, and close with a bang rather than a whimper?

Where do we wind up with Captain America and Iron Man? Who are in the costumes at the end? What are the status quos of the titles?

What is the state of the Fantastic Four, and who is on the team?

Who are the New Avengers? Who are the Secret Avengers?

WHAT SPINS OUT

What precisely are we spinning out of the end of CIVIL WAR, and in what format? We need to make sure that anything we launch out will have a reasonable chance for survival in an already-crowded field of Marvel books.

MILLAR’S ROLL-OUT PLANNING E-MAILS:

Dear ladies and gents,

I have a few broad strokes here that might be a good starting point for our discussions over the next few days. There's a decent amount of content and so I think it probably makes more sense to put all this down in an email as opposed to hoping you can all make sense of this impossible Scots accent. Please note that these are just some of the ideas I'm throwing out there and am completely open to bouncing each and every one of them around. I've purposely avoided starting the new draft on MCW 2 until after the meeting as I'm sure I'll come home with a million better and more concrete ideas after the retreat.

Anyway, enough with the insincerity. Here's what I'm thinking...

*One of the main thing I wanted to establish with this series was a revamped Marvel Universe. I want to have PRE and POST Civil War Marvel so we have something that stays in the comic book consciousness, of course, but also something that provides a new, 21st century jumping-on point for new readers. The thing I've had in the back of my mind all along is providing a monkey gland injection for some of the icons who might need it, really shaking up the continuity on the established books, but also taking a lot of big name properties you have lying around and spinning them off with cool creative teams and a new agenda.

The big thing I mentioned in issue two is the FIFTY STATE INITIATIVE and this is an idea Tony's been brewing for a while. The Avengers was phase one and essentially set up a superhero base in NYC, but this is the next step as the four corners of the USA get protection in very varied forms. I like the idea of the characters spread out a little more geographically. Readers get off on characters near them and it would stop all the characters constantly bumping into one another if some were in LA, Illinois, etc, etc. The FSI is mentioned in issue two and, as you'll have seen from the plot, gets an airing in issue four. This is my chance to revamp some characters and teams I like, but also your chance to hang any new series you might have coming up onto Civil War. We all benefit in this sense because my mini gets gravitas and your new series gets a spin-off from what's, hopefully, going to be a big event.

Anyway, the point is that MCW is all about the heroes being forced to raise their game. The series ends with the heroes of the Marvel U revamped and looking great, more formidable than they've ever been and it struck me that there would be a super-villain response. There's no room in MCW (and thematically it's too different to include), but imagine a follow up series (by a different creative team) called WAR ON TERROR that involves all these heroes getting together and just rounding up the villains. The heroes are more organized than they've ever been and the villains wouldn't stand a chance. 80% of the Marvel villains getting locked up would be a great first act and the meat of the series then becomes the response of all Marvel's big heavy hitters as they UPGRADE their villains to fight back. What we have is superhuman darwinism, an arms race of sorts where the superheroes are now so cool and unstoppable that the villains have to become something else entirely. Just a though t to throw out there as it's an obvous extension of the idea where we make the heroes up their game and it would be another huge seven issue event with a clear purpose (making the villains cool again after we've worked our magic on the heroes).

Anyway, as regards the POST MCW Marvel Universe, here's some of the ideas I wanted to throw out there. If everyone likes it, much of this stuff comes into effect with the unveiling of the FSI in issue four. I'm sure we'll have other cool stuff to add over the next couple of days, but this is what I'm thinking for now...

*New Avengers gets a spin-off book called Secret Avengers with Sue Storm, Johnny, maybe Spidey (as Joe suggested) and all the guys who're still underground. This was suggested by Joe weeks back and we'll have a clearer idea if it's possible after we all get talking this week.

*Fantastic Four with two new members to replace the missing Johnny and Sue. Again, up to JMS as they can be back together again by the end of MCW, but I think this would be cool as it shakes up the book and makes it great when they all get back together again a year down the line.

*New Warriors: I loved this book. I'm really embarrassed I hadn't seen it until I was killing them off, but it's such a great concept. One suggestion to get it in people's sights; how about MCW ends with the TV station using all the publicity to start a new NEW WARRIORS show. However, what makes this different is that it runs for six issues every summer (a season) and is open to both wannabes AND has-beens. Kind of like celebrity Big Brother. The exciting thing every year you guys launch this is who's going to be in it. This gives us a chance for some well known names among the newbies so people actually pick it up and also creates excitement as the shadowed faces are unveiled at the launch of every series. Big Brother gets bigger every year over here using this tactic and people are guesing about the celebs for months. Keep Zeb Wells, btw. He did a great job on this.

*The Champions: Marvel has a lot of mytholigical characters lying around, but they never sell. You know why? And I'm not kidding-- They've got beards. People HATE beards. No leading man can carry a movie with a beard. Even Disney shaved Hercules. Herc should look less like a gay S&M guy and more like a superhero. How about OLYMPUS headquarters in the Hollywood hills and Ares, Hercules, etc, etc, get proper costumes, 21st century looks, secret identities and become LA's premiere super-team. These guys have the potential to be your Justice League.

*I like the idea of some liberal, John Kerry state having a team of famous villains who've been released from jail and tagged, supervised by a hero who might have been a villain once himself. This could be a really human book about second chances with a bunch of bad-asses who's every move is being watched on CCTV.

*The Defenders: How about Tony, Reed and Hank ask Strange, Blade, Surfer, etc, to take care of all the shit they can't do? Cosmic and horror. It's the classic line-up with a few new twists like Blade, maybe Elektra and a couple of others more suited to this world.

*The Invaders: Cap gone (or whatever we do with him), USAgent becomes the leader of a new robot Human Torch created by Pym plus a new Union Jack, et al, to launch pre-emptive strikes on super-terror around the world. Hydra, AIM. All super-villain menaces.

*Iron Men: Tony Stark's tech in a San Diego naval base. Superheroes meet Top Gun.

And more.. but my fingers hurt...

Ball officially rolling...

MM

And a few days after the retreat had wrapped up, I curculated this summary of the decisions that had been made there:

From: Brevoort, Tom
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 2:37 PM
Cc: JMS; Mark Millar; Brian Michael Bendis; Jeph Loeb; Ed Brubaker ; Quesada, Joe; Alonso, Axel; Macchio, Ralph; Marts, Michael; Paniccia, Mark; Lazer, Molly; Schmidt, Andy; Sitterson, Aubrey
Subject: CIVIL WAR post-retreat update

Folks,

Just to make sure we’re all on the same page following our retreat last week, here is the question sheet I circulated at the meeting with the questions that needed to be resolved for CIVIL WAR, along with the answers I believe we walked away from the meeting with. But if I’m forgetting anything, or anybody remembers things differently, please let me know:

CIVIL WAR ELEMENTS WE NEED TO RESOLVE:

Are we doing the “fake” Thor at the end of CIVIL WAR #2?

Yes, but we are no longer involving the real Thor in CIVIL WAR in any way.

Are we perhaps assigning too many characters to sides too soon—especially with the concerns about characters such as Moon Knight and Daredevil

Millar and I will work this out. We’ll remove Moon Knight from the group scene in issue #1.

Spider-Man’s identity reveal: When does it occur, and in what book? How does this all play out

JMS will set this up with the discussion between Pete and Aunt May in the May issue of AMAZING SPIDER-MAN, #532. This issue will leave with Spidey going towards the podium, and the reader not knowing what he’s going to do. Then, in CIVIL WAR #2, we’ll see Spidey’s speech, wherein he’ll unmask before the cameras—we’ll probably see this on televisions in bars and other locations across the country. Then, in AMAZING #533, JMS will show much the same scene up close, and then deal with the reactions and fall-out among Pete’s closest friends.

How and when does Thor come into the picture—how is he introduced? Do we have any information on what this new Thor will look like, and how he’ll act on the page?

The new Thor will not be in CIVIL WAR (outside of the set-up stuff that JMS is doing in his FF issues leading up to CIVIL WAR)

How do we bring in the new Gravity Captain Marvel? Will this seem like just another random element that gets thrown out without much explanation?

When the fight breaks out of the Negative Zone and into Manhattan, we’ll bring in the new Captain Marvel as a mysterious heroic figure—he’ll appear, help take down Marvel Boy, and then disappear again. But we won’t explain who or what he is—we’ll save that for the new series. He’ll just look like the old Captain Marvel from the 70s.

How do we punch up the ending, unify Cap and Iron Man at least for a moment, and close with a bang rather than a whimper?

Final fight comes down to a brutal battle between Cap and Iron Man, at the end of which both guys are like punch-drunk fighters who can barely stand. One gets the upper hand momentarily—but before the final blow can be struck, the mother from issue #1 and other ordinary citizens move between the two men to separate them and bring the battle to a close peacefully. Cap will offer himself up for arrest, but not before removing his headpiece, saying that it’s Steve Rogers who’ll be arrested. At the very end, a shadowed hand will pick up Cap’s discarded mask.

Where do we wind up with Captain America and Iron Man? Who are in the costumes at the end? What are the status quos of the titles?

In CAP, Cap will almost immediately be shot in an assassination attempt in the aftermath of his arrest, and the quest for Cap’s assassin will drive the book for awhile. Iron Man will end up running the Mighty Avengers and being the guy overseeing the super hero registration and training process.

What is the state of the Fantastic Four, and who is on the team?

In the anniversary issue, #543 in November, Reed and Sue will take the kids and go off together to repair their marriage and reconnect. They’ll recruit the Black Panther and Storm to fill their place in the FF.

Who are the New Avengers? Who are the Secret Avengers?

Tony’s public Avengers (In the new book, MIGHTY AVENGERS) will include Iron Man, Ms Marvel, Wonder Man, the Sentry, Ares and the Black Widow. The underground secret Avengers (in NEW AVENGERS) will include Hawkeye (in a new role or identity), Cage, Jessica Jones, Echo/Ronin, Spider-Woman, Wolverine and Spider-Man.

Tom B

Wait a second... Gravity as Captain Marvel?

Posted by Michael Heide on 2007-07-20 23:18:12

yeah...
The one thing that I am interested in that hasn't really been addressed is the green-light phase of this project. Did Mark Millar just email one day and say, "Tom and Joe, I want to blow up the MU and start over?" or was this a brainchild from somewhere else? And was there a lot of debate about this? Who stood up against this and who stood up for this?

Thank for the behind-the-scenes look. This is REALLY great.

Posted by bigdaddyhub2 on 2007-07-20 23:46:46

Mi9llar's Defenders sounds great.
I think a Defenders book with the supernatural characters sounds really good. Obviously you couldn't have Strange, but I think New Avengers brought up Brother VooDoo to a level of respectability that would allow him to start a team. Going from Blade in his book, I could see him working with S.H.E.I.L.D. to do just what he does anyway.
Not sure who the rest of the team would be, and if your not careful it would become Midnight Sons real fast, but I think its a really cool idea.

Posted by IanZL on 2007-07-21 01:06:27

Strongest and Weakest points of MCW
I am really of mixed feelings about Civil War. On the one hand, I really enjoyed much of the reading of it as it happened. It was a very exciting time, as a Marvel reader, as things became (and in some ways still are) very uncertain for our favourite characters. On the other hand, I have some misgivings about it as a story that stands on its own.

Realistically, it all depends on how you look at it, at what standards you hold it to and what 'goals' you impose on it. From a sales point of view, obviously it was a success. It sold big time, and not only did the mini-series itself sell, its heat sold lots of other books. Things spinning off of and out of Civil War were boosted greatly by it, and a number of older books were re-invigorated. So, in sales, it was great.

As a story springboard, too, it seems to have been a success. It gave a new direction to the entire line, and whether the readers love the Registration or hate it, it's certainly producing all-new stories that get people worked up. For every reader who thinks Tony Stark, Director of SHIELD was an awesome move, there's probably another reader buying the book in anticipation of his comeuppance. It succeeded very well there.

The problem I had with the series was with the plot of the miniseries itself. I've already said, I loved reading Civil War, but in all honesty, that was more to do with the whole story springboard effect. I was caught up in the whole idea, the 'Whose Side Are You On?' push and (in all honesty) I buy an awful lot of comic books, so I was reading practically the entire line of tie-ins. That being said, however, when I think back on the mini-series proper, look at it on its own, I have a bit of a problem, and it is really centered on the ending.

Marvel promised us that there would be a clear winner and loser in MCW. Now, I think it's clear they meant that the Pro-Registration side would be the clear winner. The problem I have with that statement is that the 'clear win' they attained was won in issue two (I believe) with the passing of the Act. From the time the law is enacted to the end of the mini, very little changes. No 'victory' is won in the last issue of the series. Yes, Captain America did surrender, because the people were against him... but he didn't give up the fight- he was going to continue. Hell, the New/Secret Avengers didn't ever stop fighting the war. The new 'Status Quo' was established so early in the series that I felt let down by the fact that ending didn't change it. The series just stopped there, even though the fight went on for a number of characters.

The question I would ask is, what is the journey the reader is supposed to go on in this story? What is the emotional arc they are supposed to follow? Let's say we really don't want to force the reader to take one side or the other, we really want them to choose for themself- that's fine, we should just have two emotional arcs then, one for each side. So what were they?

Well, anyone who sides with the pro-registration would start their emotional arc with a reaction to the destruction of Stamford, along with Tony. They would support the SHRA, and be glad when it passed. Perhaps they would, again, along with Tony, hope that there was a peaceful way to bring old friends over to this side. Would they support bringing in super-villains? Cloning Thor? Locking up heroes indefinately in the Negative Zone? Well, maybe, maybe not. I think the average reader would not be willing to go that far... those combined with the accidental death of Bill Foster, and there is a chance some of the Pro-Reg readers would be put-off by this, and start to have their doubts. Then, the big fight at the end happens, and Cap surrenders, and the Pro-Reg side wins by default, not by actually doing anything heroic or proving their rightness. And the pro-reg reader feels... relief at not having to worry anymore? I'm not sure what.

On the Anti-registration side, we have the horror at the Stamford affair, then the outrage of the injustice of the law. From that point on, we mostly just have more of the unjustness of the law, and feeling the other side is wrong. The Anti-Reg side was never really portrayed as doing anything very bad, other than the original thing of going against the law and promoting vigilanteism. Sure, Cap got a bit over-zealous in there... but he was angry at injustice. Yes, Punisher killed some people, but that was Punisher doing his thing, that was not sanctioned by the Anti-Reg side. So, that is continuing and building for five issues, and then... some people throw things at Cap and he turns himself in. Would public opinion sawy an anti-reg supporter? I don't think so. The Anti-Reg side was about ideals, not popularity. The anti-reg side believes registration is WRONG, not that people don't support it. So, after Cap turns in, the series ends, with the registration act still in place, and the people against it are still against it.

I said, in yesterday's post, that I was against the ending proposed in that memo - where Cap decides Tony was right, and gives in. Well, I should clarify. I was against that, yes, because I myself was anti-registration and still am. I WOULD, however, be in favor of an ending that attempts to actually tie this up, to really convince one side that the other was right. An ending where Cap is convinced is (if the convincing is done well) an ending where the reader is convinced. As MCW stands now, Cap was convinced that his methods were wrong (in that he was just turning people against him) but he was not convinced that his position was wrong. And so, neither were the readers.

From Tom's notes, we see that at one point, the idea WAS floated to use the whole 'both sides unite against a REAL threat' ending. In some ways, I think I might have preferred that ending. Yes, it's as old as comics themselves, but it is pure Marvel. And perhaps we've seen that ending used som many times, we forget that it actually means something. It represents the idea that we can lose sight of what truly matters when we focus on things like beauracracy and politicing. That the larger goal here is to protect people. That sort of ending, the everyone-pulls-together ending, likely would lead to some sort of meeting of the minds, some kind of compromise between the sides.

Wow, I wrote a lot more here than I had intended to. In closing, let me say again that I am not a Civil War nay-sayer really. I really enjoyed the whole idea, and I loved a lot of the comics that came out of it. I just wanted to put across my opinion about where it went right (the big ideas and the springboards) and where I thought it went wrong (not enough resolution). Thanks for reading, anyone who got through it!

Jordan D. White

Posted by cracksh0t on 2007-07-21 01:07:28

okay for the Defenders this way, to take care on the cosmic and supernatural dimensions of the MU, couldn't say better, couldn't expect more,
maybe will we have differents packs of Defenders dealing simultaneously with differents threads all over the world, and beyond...

Posted by notapotatoe on 2007-07-21 05:51:50

Whoa, whoa, slow down there . . . another New Invaders book? With a new Union Jack? What's wrong with Joey Chapman? The man's at the strongest he's ever been after his most recent dynamite mini-series. Getting rid of him to bring in a new one would be insanity.

Posted by Carzy on 2007-07-22 13:56:34

Jordan White,
Do you see the inherent irony of the fact that you are Anti-Registration, and yet you insist on signing your name to your internet posts because you aren't a fan of anonymity?

So who's side are you REALLY on?

bigdaddyhub will unmask...now...
Jordan Hubbard!!!!

Posted by bigdaddyhub2 on 2007-07-22 17:23:17

Hey, Cap had already unmasked. Me and him, we're from the same cloth. Except I'm not in as good shape, or in the military, or 80 years old.

Posted by cracksh0t on 2007-07-23 01:36:00

:-) another good collection.

2 Clicks Comics

Posted by rvyne on 2007-07-23 04:54:32

yes, but
Do you wish everyone would want to sign their REAL name, Jordan?

Posted by bigdaddyhub2 on 2007-07-23 17:03:56

Good question. Not sure. It might cut down on the rudeness of hiding behind anonymity. Hard to say.

I was on the radio here for the last few years, and a lot of the DJs would use "DJ Names" they made up, but I always use my own. I guess I just feel like, if I'm doing something I would be embarrased to put my name on, I probably shouldn't be doing it. And sure, I might like everyone to agree with me...

But I doubt I would make it a law.

Posted by cracksh0t on 2007-07-23 18:09:18

answer to crackshot!!
Hi man how you doing, yeah i got trough all your post.!!! (hey maybe thousands of people)
I only want to say that i disagree with you on the fact that you consider that ‘’the lack of resolution’’ or ‘’not enough resolution’’ was a ‘’fault’’ or a ‘’weakness’’of the CIVIL WAR series structure.
I love what Marvel is doing right now, you know, mainly because of this point. OPEN ENDINGS it’s called, there’s no clear winners and losers, like live itself. There’s moral ambiguety, like live itself. What is wrong? what is right? That’s up to the reader i think. You are not going to see it explained clearly in the pages of the comics.
I love the fact that after the war, there’s still moral conflict in the Marvel U, and i am following very emotively the New/Mighty plotline. We wouldn’t have had the chance of something like this with ‘’ a clear resolution’’. Clear resolutions don’t exist in real life, DOUBT is awating us at the corner in the end of the streets of our lives. You may have a clear resolution about who you are, and what is your role in life now, but maybe in a couple of years Doubt will confuse you again, you might be lost and confused again.
I like the fact that Marvel is now using a lot of OPEN ENDINGS and ENDINGS WITH NO CLEAR RESOLUTION in their storylines. Just like good movies, good literature and good art, where open endings, moral ambiguity and personal interpretations of the public is used a lot.
Well, that’s all, a pleasure to debate with you crackshot see you soon!!
Hope you read my post .

Guido Cuadros F.A.

Posted by Los Shapis on 2007-07-23 23:27:51

Well, I'm with you on what Marvel is doing now, for the most part. Like I said, I am all for what Civil War started as a story springboard! You mention "after the war", but to a great extent, I wonder why the war is over? The Secret Avengers are still out there fighting. There are still tons of non-registered heroes being rounded up. What is different between now and issue three of Civil War? This Status Quo was established when the law passed, and everything after that in the series was just... well, it was cool action sequences featuring cool characters, but which amount to nothing.

Also, look- I am trying not to make this sound too harsh. I liked Civil War a lot. I read it, and I'm happy to have done so. There are some great scenes in all the issues, including the ones I am criticizing. What I'm saying is that if you just look at the seven issue series on its own and weigh it on its own merits, I feel the story isn't the best. Because it feels like in those seven issues, the main conflict is resolved in issue two- the pro-registration side wins when registration is made the law. For all the fury and fighting, the rest of the series doesn't ever affect that fact, and then the series ends, going "Yep, like we said, reistration is law."

But let me admit- this criticism doesn't mean much if you want to look at Civil War not as a simple 7 issue series to be judged on its own merits, but as a launching point for all the stories to follow. It set up that new status quo well, and now things are different. The only thing about that is, if the purpose is just to set up this new status quo, it probably could have been done in fewer issues.

Posted by cracksh0t on 2007-07-24 13:07:51

ahhh, ok, now i got you better and i agree with you on a lot of points, almost everything.
i also like more the ideas and the ''creative revolution'' that Marvel has started, more than civil war as an specific series in particular.
i like more the concepts, the new ideas, the new status quo (as you say the same as it was already in CW #2) and all the new posibilities, the bet marvel is doing for more realistic, grounded on reality, actual issues in real world , kind of stories.
BUt of course civil war as a miniseries on his own is not a ''masterpiece of comic art'' it was a good quality miniseries who served as a turning point for the new concepts, and there's its value.
Marvel has done a great execution to a new Universe ( just look at the mess Dc is doing with four years of unending crisis with a lot of unrealistic stuff, really far from reality etc. i don't buy DC comics, i maybe can read some batman confidential, or morrison's batman, but the rest of their comics are pretty unaccecible, and boring IMO)

Guido Cuadros F.A.

Posted by Los Shapis on 2007-07-24 14:15:57

I agree with you, but I think civil war rocks in the fact that it was the biggest event that hit marvel comics in years,( house of M IS A BIG ONE TOO)

Posted by codygreen95 on 2007-07-24 18:26:13

however,
Civil War sounded like more fun when I heard about it than it actually was. When the big throwdowns came, it really felt more like "dang, they are really going to do this" than "oh yeah! They are really going to do this!" I like CW, but it wasn't fun.

WWH, on the other hand, is FUN. I don't know why, but this seems to be more fun and less brooding. I guess I just have hope that the death toll will be really limited and the beatdowns will be more comic-bookish. Is that a word?

Posted by bigdaddyhub2 on 2007-07-25 00:00:47

Daredevil in Civil War
This is a really weird request, but -- considering the CW Director's Cut had the Daredevil lines attributed to Iron Fist in the original script, is there uncorrected art from CW1 where Iron Fist was in DD's place? I'm just curious, largely since I'd love to see McNiven's Danny in proper attire.

Posted by uzumerid on 2007-08-05 05:39:48

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