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Civil War Aftermath
2007-07-24 16:05:03

CIVIL WAR #2 last page unrevised

Jack O'Lantern sketch by Ariel Olivetti

Jester sketch by Ariel Olivetti

One last day of behind-the-scenes at the CIVIL WAR crossover, and then I'll move onto something else. Today I've got a compliation memo that was cobbled together by copying-and-pasting from e-mails and documents written by a number of creators and editors outlining assorted tie-ins, and things they were interested in spinning out of CIVIL WAR. This document is therefore a little bit disjointed, and not all of these ideas made it all the way to the printed page, but this'll give you some idea as to what people were thinking they wanted to do at a certain point:

CREATORS’ CIVIL WAR CROSSOVER IDEAS:

I think the TBOLTS would be very open and willing to get involved, since all of their identities are public knowledge already, this helps ENHANCE their agenda of becoming publicly accepted heroes.
I would like to see a LARGE ROLE for them in this story, since as a group post #100, they will be a VERY POWERFUL group and ZEMO already has strong ties to the CSA and a healthy disrespect/distrust of the mainstream superheroes with a strong desire to manipulate them and also make them look bad for his own benefit.

I would like to do a CDP crossover as well, with CABLE agreeing with CAP and seeing this as a road to ruin, as it were, a precursor to the kind of demagogue state he grew up in (to the point where he can offer CAP and his SECRET AVENGERS a safehaven on PROVIDENCE or the Central European country formerly run by FLAG SMASHER that CABLE will be "President" of by this point...
Meanwhile, DP is being recruited as a HERO HUNTER, so he LIKES the idea of finally getting some respect and some cash for the chance to kick some hero ass.

Now all I need to do is figure out which issues this would be...

Fabe

MS. MARVEL
I'd like the third arc (assuming there is one, it would be issues 7, 8, 9) to be a CIVIL WAR tie-in.

I'd imagine that Carol Danvers supports the whole thing not just because she's ex-Air Force and she's used to taking orders, but because her own identity has been public for so long that she doesn't entirely see the need for secret identities.

It might be fun to have Jessica Jones to have the exact opposite opinion, causing their friendship to become strained.

One of the things I've been planning with the Sarah Day publicist character is to reveal that STUFF THAT DIDN'T QUITE HAPPEN, BUT MIGHT REVEAL SOME STUFF THAT STILL MAY, EXCISED.

I would also like to do something with Captain Marvel since we're bringing him back. But I know absolutely nothing about that project at the moment. (This is the part where someone tells me Carol is going to be the new Captain Marvel, isn't it? Okay, maybe not, but that outline doc is way vague in the Captain Marvel department and a guy's mind can wander.)

CIVIL WAR: ROUND UP

This idea might be too close to THE AGENCY, but I like the idea of an issue dedicated to a team of guys (maybe S.H.I.E.L.D. spec ops, maybe Silver Sable and the Wild Pack, maybe just H.A.M.M.E.R. guys trained for the job) who have the job of rounding up non-compliers.

As the story progresses, the team is sent to take down a hero (since I don't know details of who's available here, I'm staying generic) that saved one of the team members lives in the past.

This team member realizes he can't go through with arresting the person who saved his life, so he turns on his teammates, joining forces with the very heroes he is supposed to be rounding up.

CIVIL WAR: MAN ON THE STREET
Three or four stories from both sides of the registration act argument, as viewed by the Average Joe in the Marvel Universe. Possibly presented as an episode of a television newsmagazine or maybe Ben Urich conducting interviews for a book he is going to write on the events.

Whoever the host/writer character is, they are our anchor in the story. They are undecided themselves and they're trying to use this story they are doing to figure out what the hell is going on in the world around them. This seems like a great way to get inside the head of the Marvel Universe and show what's going on.

Some bits that popped into my head thinking about this:

• "See, I'm old enough to remember a world without people swinging over head. A world where streets didn't explode just because somebody whose momma didn't love 'em enough has up and decided to kill innocent people. I remember when it was safe to walk down the street. When it was safe to live in New York City."

• "The first time I saw somebody flying around, well, I think I was eight and I just assumed everybody learned to fly the same as they learned to walk or drive a car. I still love seeing people fly."

• "Where we gonna be if we make these guys tells us all who they is? Huh? Where we gonna be? Up the creek without a paddle is where. I swear to you, the only reason this city is still standin is cause a these guys. You go after them, make em fill out all kindsa paper work like they did somethin wrong? Why would they do that? They'll just quit. They'll just go home and quit. The whole city's gonna fall apart."

• "My wife... she doesn't know. About me, I mean. I never... I never told her I had super strength or super speed. I wasn't going to put on tights and risk my life... Not after all those years of med school. So, for twelve years we've been married and I haven't told her, because it isn't something I ever even think about. Sometimes I run around the globe once, just real quick, just to make sure I didn't dream that I could do it. And now? Now the government is going to come in here and say I have to register because some accident two decades ago gave me powers I never even use? Sure, I could blow it off. I could keep it a secret. But what happens when we're in a car wreck and the EMTs realize there's something odd with my body? You heard what kinds of fines they're talking about. And jail time. Jail time! Good lord..."

BLACK PANTHER #18 (July)

The wedding. Covered live by BET. Stan, Jack, Don, Priest, myself, Axel, Joe…all drawn in, of course. All the monarchs are there, from Black Bolt to Captain Britain to Prince Namor to Dr. Doom. And of course, all the remaining X-Men. And the FF and Avengers. Cap and Iron Man show up. Tension.

Super-villian attack on the whole shebang makes everyone work well together, but in the end, it’s a house divided back in America, but love in Wakanda. T’Challa opens his doors to super powered friends who want to leave America. Most of the black superheroes, like Luke Cage, think this is a great idea. You can see this might be the moment a black Avengers team is born. [I LIKE THE IDEA OF TEEING UP A BLACK SUPER HERO TEAM, BUT I’M CONCERNED ABOUT CREATING THE IMPRESSION THAT THEY WOULD DO SO BY FORSAKING AMERICA. -- AXEL] This makes Wakanda even more of a threat in US State Department eyes. They are harboring terrorists….including, they suspect, public enemy number one…Captain America.

Tom,

Here’s how I see my tie-ins breaking down:

1) AMAZING SPIDER-MAN: ASM #532 begins a new arc in May. Given JMS’s plans to deepen the relationship between Tony Stark and Peter Parker, I figure this is the Spider-Man title that should explicitly tie-in with the event. Ideally, we’d do that starting in May and run as long as JMS has got a story in him. Given Spidey’s prominence in the Marvel Universe and (I hope) his key role in MCW, I figure we’ll have enough meat for a good story.
Issue count: Several issues. Maybe up to 7 months.

2) WOLVERINE: In May, Marc Guggenheim and Humberto Ramos take of the monthly title. I figure we’d explicitly tie in with MCW by no later than July. Marc, who’s signed on to write 6 issues of the title, understands that the war doesn’t really begin in earnest until July, so he’s more than happy to write a foreground story in May and June that’s set against the backdrop of the emerging war, and then really tie in with the June issue (WOLVERINE #44).
Issue count: 3-4 issues.

3) PUNISHER (MARVEL KNIGHTS): I would like to do a dedicated one-shot or 3- to 4-issue limited series that starts in August or September (the Punisher first appears in the CIVIL WAR #4, in stores in August). I figure there’s got to be a story in Frank Castle pursuing a particularly heinous group of teched-up super-villains. Maybe we could even have a dramatic moment where the Punisher confronts Tony Stark about Tony’s Faustian Pact? One thing that will be crucial to the success of this limited series will be a head count. I’m going to need permission to kill some bad guys -- at least one big one, and a bunch of smaller ones.
Issue count: Dedicated one-shot or a 3- to 4-issue limited series.

4) BLACK PANTHER: I would like to tie-in in June, with T’Challa returning to Wakanda, aware of the war that’s started in the U.S., and July, the month of the Wedding. In that month, of course, the combatants will form an uneasy truce to attend the wedding. I can provide you with more info as I get it.
Issue count: 1-2 issues.

Also, Warren is going to talk with Brubaker about Daredevil. Given DD’s in jail in the regular monthly, we’ll probably avoid an explicit tie-in there. We could do a dedicated limited series, though.

- Axel

Civil War: Villain Registration
Someone is registering the villains in Jail (This could lead to Tony’s idea)
Someone is hunting them down and registering them before the commit crimes (new hero)

Here’s a short list of MCW-related projects we’re considering to develop.

• SENTINEL SQUAD: WAR MACHINES (one-shot). The new breed of Sentinels has been jointly called upon by The O*N*E and H.A.M.M.E.R. to enforce the SHRA and round up those who resist. Obviously with Rhodey and other “good guys” as the pilots, conflict ensues as some of them question the ethics of their orders.

• MARVEL CIVIL WAR: X-MEN. (LS) What was originally David Hine’s pitch for THE 198 sequel now becomes this mini series. With the X-Men essentially being Switzerland and staying neutral, certain rogue mutant factions (Cable, X-Force and The 198) refuse to sit back and watch the Super Hero Registration Act evolve into the Mutant Registration Act. They become pro-active, and take matters into their own hands to prevent this eventuality.

• BISHOP: LONE SOLDIER (one shot). The one lone X-Man to actively take a stance on one side of the Marvel Civil War. There’s a story here somewhere.

• CLOAK & DAGGER (ongoing). Along the lines of Ant-Man, Champions, etc., here is the time and place for us relaunch this duo. This time around, in a world of superhuman secrecy, they will be forced to finally assume the roles of their namesakes.

• STORM & BLACK PANTHER/WAKANDA…not sure what this is, but envision some type of Storm project.

• MCW: THE HUNT FOR SPIDER-MAN (LS) . So, let me get this straight. Super-powered beings must register themselves with the U.S. Government. Correct. Some are resisting registration. Correct. These are figures who many people call “heroes.” Captain America, Invisible Woman…Spider-Man even. Correct. And you need men and women with powers to help track them down. Registered people with super powers. Even people registered through prison. Correct. And you will fund the…the “hunt” for lack of a better word. Correct. And it will be 100% legal. That is all correct. Are you interested Mr. Osborn? Hmmm… Yes. I think I am. …………. Norman Osborn is tagged and freed to hunt down un-registered super humans. With a group of fellow convicts he goes in pursuit of Spider-Man. What he doesn’t tell the government is that he already knows that Spider-Man is Peter Parker. He not only tries to hunt Spider-Man down, but to mentally torture him. How painful would it be that Norman, who has caused him so many problems, can openly and legally hunt Peter.

After a lot of research and thought.

During the Civil War, instead of running my own Secret Avengers story or trying to tie into Mark or try to keep a facade up untill the post Civil War Avengers plans..., I am going to do a story arc called. the Secret History of the Marvel Universe. It will fill in all the Illuminati stuff I can't get into the Special and it will tie together all the events of Marvel past into Civil War.

For the last few months I’ve been talking with a few freelancers about rebooting The Champions, so if there’s a way to propel them out of MCW – as one of the teams set up by Mark – this might be a good opportunity to launch the book. Or launch a limited that can lead into the book, etc.

Obviously this is all contingent on Mark’s plans, but this is a team I’ve talked about with Axel for a bit.

STUFF TO SPIN OUT:

SECRET AVENGERS (or AVENGERS ILLUMINATI?)
CAPTAIN MARVEL
THOR
ANT-MAN (during)
Something with HAMMER?
INVADERS?
Reggie’s Wakandan Super-Team?
CLOAK & DAGGER
CHAMPIONS
“UPGRADES”

More later.

Tom B

Loving this
I guess it might go without saying, but I am loving this behind the scenes look. I wasn't really a reader of Civil War, but I find the planning behind it fascinating. In some ways, it makes me live Civil War!

Also - this also goes without saying (cause these blogs seem to always have issues) but the past Civil War posts seem to have vanished.

Thanks again Tom!

Posted by kevhines on 2007-07-23 20:23:35

More thanks for the behind-the-scenes!

A couple of quick thoughts-

1. Good choice, switching costumes on Spidey's identity reveal. It looks great as Iron Spidey, but... it has much more mainstream appeal as the real Spidey.

2. Aw, I would have loved that "Hunt for Spider-Man" series. Sadly, I think the reveal of Peter Parker sort of took the wind out of those sails. Still, New New Thunderbolts is great, and I am sure SOMEDAY Norman Osborn will be back to playing hell with Peter. once everyone forgets his identity again, somehow...

Jordan D. White

Posted by cracksh0t on 2007-07-23 22:17:29

please sir...
...may I have more? Tom, this behind the scenes tour is gold. If I were Oliver Twist, I would be in line for seconds. This post in many ways was my favorite because not only do we get behind the scenes, we also get to see how editors and writers outline their plots. Some make it...some don't. I loved this!

Posted by bigdaddyhub2 on 2007-07-24 00:18:16

Since this seems to be close to the actual re
...I wonder when the decision was made to drop the whole H.A.M.M.E.R. idea and replace it with S.H.I.E.L.D....

Posted by Michael Heide on 2007-07-24 09:04:02

Some questions
July 24, 2007

Dear Mr. Brevoort:

I´m wrighting this letter to ask you a few things.

First. I´m Argentinian, so, i don´t know talk a lot of english, but, as i learn english in my school, i can, i think, talk well.

Second. Here in Argentina, we haven´t a Marvel Sucursal, or something like that. So, i don´t know where i have to send my next setter talking about a summer job in Marvel.

Third. I read the letter that you receive from Mrs. Suzanne Gaffney, talking about your interest in become a Marvel intern.
In this part of the letter, i have to ask you something. Do i have to be an older ager to have the posibilitie to become in a Marvel intern?
I have to tell you. I have fourteen years old, in agoust 17, i will fifteen years old.

Other question that i have (sorry for all the questions that i´m doing) is, i will have a mentor or something like that? Becasuse, i never be in a place as important as Marvel, and i think that i´ll have a little presion on my shoulders if i don´t work well.
Also, i want to know if, to become a Marvel Intern, i have to have some Draw knowdeledges. I think, that i have a little, but i like the anime toons. I don´t know if that is a contradiction to Marvel, but my objetive is not only become a Marvel Intern, also, make better my draw skill.

Well, thank you to had take your time to read my letter;

María Belén Peluffo Lupiano

Ushuaia, Argentina
Tel: (02901) 436 – 362
Cel: (02901) 15516646

P.S: If you think that i can´t be a Marvel Intern, can you be my mentor? If you worked in marvel, i think that you know draw, don´t you?. I will wait your answer.

Posted by Rika Osutaki on 2007-07-24 13:46:02

Hey, Maria...
You might want to check out this link:
http://www.marvel.com/company/webinterns.htm

Posted by Michael Heide on 2007-07-25 10:24:47

Thank you Michael Heide
Thank tou very much. I apreaciate that. ;)

Posted by Rika Osutaki on 2007-07-25 11:16:51

You're welcome. :o)

Posted by Michael Heide on 2007-07-25 18:07:06

Heroes Fighting Heroes
As you’re probably aware, Mr. Brevoort, “Civil War” was criticized harshly online in various forums, because the political content was a sham, a mere pretext for inducing heroes to fight heroes. The real-world approach to fighting suspect or objectionable legislation is to go to a federal court and challenge the law’s constitutionality. The legal process wasn’t a major part of “Civil War,” obviously.

The shallowness of the political content has been demonstrated by the “Mighty Avengers” vs. “New Avengers” continuing plotline in NEW AVENGERS, which has the NA treated as lawbreakers simply because they haven’t registered, not because they’re actively doing anything illegal.

Since heroes fighting heroes (HfH) was so successful, is that why “World War Hulk” is also emphasizing HfH, and the “Skrulls” storyline, by causing heroes to suspect each other, seems destined to focus on HfH as well?

Marvel has given readers the impression that the company has decided heroes fighting villains, in the classical sense of good versus evil, is boring and/or old-fashioned, and that HfH is new and exciting. The cynical view is that HfH is merely a gimmick aimed at short-term readers, and that when even those readers realize how shallow the gimmick is, Marvel will have trouble finding another type of opponent. After all, the heroes have to fight somebody, don’t they?

Marvel’s emphasis on capturing the interest of new and short-term readers also raises questions about how the “Skrulls” storyline might violate continuity. Claiming that any member of the Illuminati has been a Skrull since the Kree-Skrull War would be false, in a literary sense. Claremont, in UXM, for example, was writing Xavier, not a Skrull impersonating Xavier. BTW, the Knaufs’ “Execute Program” arc in IRON MAN #7-#12, by retconning Iron Man’s origin, made a claim that Stark has been a Skrull prior to that storyline impossible.

Continuity is obviously a major concern of mine, and deservedly so, because honoring continuity while devising imaginative and innovative plots is a major factor in making stories art. Fantasy constructed within limits is potentially art; fantasy stories written without limits are merely collections of random events.

BTW, had the creators of “Civil War” been familiar with Marvel’s history, they’d have realized that the project and its aftermath simply repeated the basic premise of the “Serpent Crown” storyline in Englehart’s AVENGERS. Replace the Squadron Supreme with the Mighty Avengers and one winds up with very similar scenarios, including the conspiracy between businessmen, government officials, and heroes.

SRS

Posted by Steven R. Stahl on 2007-07-26 14:30:38

Heroes Fighting Heroes - Response and Thought
Some initial thought to SRS:

While obviously the legal aspects of “Civil War” (CW) were not shown in detail in the story, irregardless, the CW story tells us that the Registration Law had been passed, and that all super powered people need to register with the government. Hence registering IS the law in the Marvel Universe, so when the New Avengers do not register and use their super power, they are in fact breaking the law. You know its like if I buy a gun and do not register it and get caught using it, I would have broken the law.

While I thought it would be more interesting, at least to me, to see how the Registration Law passed and what kind of appeals and lawsuits came from it in detail, I understand that most fans would be board by this. CW is from the view point of Iron Man and Captain America and the groups they lead, not from two opposing politicians. I understand why Marvel chose to do this- to make money. I seriously doubt as many comic books would have been sold if each issue had little or no super-heroes in the comic and just focused on lawyers, politicians, and judges. While in the “real-world” passing laws and federal court process may take long periods of time, then again in the “real world”, “super-heroes” with “super powers” aren’t real.

I don’t think the idea of heroes fighting heroes (HfH) is new in comics, especially for the Marvel Universe. In Contest of Champions I & II heroes fought each other. In fact HfH took place way back in Fantastic Four Vol 1 #25 when the Thing fist fought the Hulk. Although I do love the classic good vsersus evil stories, where characters morals and thoughts are clearly defined by black and white concepts, I think the HfH is a nice change of pace.

CW starts as Marvel introduces the concept of change into their universe. As things change, and people naturally question change (such as new laws), people sometimes shift from being either black or white to a grey or a middle ground. It is characters in the grey I find interesting, after all, how you deal with change is an important part of life. So, as things change in the Marvel Universe, classic good characters such as Captain America no longer accept the change and become grey and engages in HfH (until the end, when Cap re-finds his morals). Other Marvel characters have always been in the grey.

Historically the Hulk has always been a grey character, supposedly a good guy through out his series, he was always engaged in HfH. Is really WWH (except in a much larger scale) like the Hulk fighting the Thing way back in FF #25. In FF #25 the Hulk is angry at the Fantastic Four so he fights them. Additionally such characters as Namor have also been a grey character. While considered a good guy, he often fought good guys,- he even fights Iron Man in “Atlantis Attacks“ and the Avengers through out their series. And don’t forget the Punisher, who has always been the bad good guy who fought other heroes.

That being said, the HfH in WWH, which is most likely a short term story (except for maybe the aftermath in the Hulk series itself), may be “gimmick” story (I assume Marvel likes these types of stories because they make money on it- damn capitalist…). Other gimmick stories I think marvel has published in the past are: Age of apocalypse, Acts of Vengeance, Inferno, and Contest of Champions I & II. In the Contest of Champions, which was a popular mini series, the result of the series is the Elders become immortal. The Elders are minor characters in the Marvel Universe, what major impact does this have on the Marvel Universe and continuity? It was basically just HfH, though very entertaining at that.

Continuing, it’s a little naive to say “Marvel will have trouble finding another type of opponent”. While I haven’t read every single Marvel comic, I’m sure through out the years, good guys always fought somebody or something. After all, Captain America originally fought Nazis, then super-villains, super-heroes, politicians, SHIELD, terrorists, etc.. Your statement also seems to indicate that things will not change from current readership tastes and editorial and writer preferences. That of course is untrue (all tings change- it’s only natural), eventually Marvel will print a different types of stories.

Remember continuity changes in comic books, and is reinvented by generations of readers and writers to new generations of readers and writers. In fact, most of the Marvel Universe continuity is not pure and can be problematic, if you think about it. If I was an seemly obsessed absolutist, I would agree continuity is broken in the marvel universe. After all, how could Peter Parker who became spider-man in 1963 at age of 15 only be 30ish now in 2007? And what happened to the Clone Saga? How comes Marvel never mentions it, and in facts acts like it never happened, when in fact in print it did-another continuity problem. Or what ever happened to the teenage Tony Stark, how comes Marvel never mentions it? Or how come in the Tales of Suspense origin story, Tony Stark is 21 and in Vietnam when he adopts the armor, but in later comic book issues his origin story is in the gulf when he adopts the armor. I guess my point is this, continuity is an inherently flawed concept in the Marvel Universe in the long term. As things change and time passes, stories are reinvented or retold, using modern terms to adapt to changing writers and readership, culture and society. How hard would it be for a 15 year old boy to try to relate to Vietnam? It’s much easier for him to relate to the Gulf War. Please remember, time passes in the Marvel universe differently then in real life.

The statement: “Continuity is obviously a major concern of mine, and deservedly so, because honoring continuity while devising imaginative and innovative plots is a major factor in making stories art. Fantasy constructed within limits is potentially art; fantasy stories written without limits are merely collections of random events.” really show how absolute you are in your thoughts. How could “fantasy stories written without limits” not be art? I would assume you think WWH is not art? You may not like it, and you think its pointless and stupid, but it’s still art. While films, books, stories, painting and comic books are ratable things (they can win awards), they are still- most importantly- subject able things. How can one enforce on someone else to like art. Which story is better Watchmen or Squadron Supreme? I hate the movie “Dancer in the Dark”, I think its one of the worse films ever made, but my best friend thinks it is one of the best movies ever made. Who’s right?

And for assuming CW and it’s aftermath is nothing more the a rip off of the “Serpent Crown” saga, you may end up being right that the very very very basic idea of the Crown story could end up be very similar to the future Skull story. Its like Star Wars, you know that was nothing more then a rip off of Roman and Greek Mythology and the Lord of the Rings books. However, Star Wars turned into successful, and entertaining movie to most.

If it is true that Marvel decides that one of the Illuminati is in fact a Skrull, I too agree that may be a stretch, because how does a Skull know how to adopt a persons personality to a T? It will be interesting to see who really is a Skull and how it‘s all explained, but I don’t worry about it. Why- because its only a comic book. If I end up not liking the Skrull story I won’t read it and be overly obsessed and absolute about how much I dislike it.

Sal

Posted by Sal S. Hughes on 2007-07-27 02:02:10

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