Sold Out
The phrase "sold out" usually means, "It was cool when I was the only one who liked it, but now that everyone else likes it, it's not cool anymore." Sometimes people like the idea that they're supporting an underdog. So even if the quality doesn't change, they'll change their opinion based on how successful it is.

This is kinda the same thing. People get so hyped up with wanting to support the underdog that the don't want to recognise the big dog when he does something praiseworthy. Or maybe they genuinely didn't like that product, but instead of just saying that they try to come up with a more grandiose way of disagreeing, and this is what comes out. Not liking something that other people liked is perfectly reasonable, but it doesn't get as much attention as claiming that some major injustice is happening.

Posted by CodeGuy on 2007-09-19 11:46:47
Perspective
Obviously it's all about perspective. Civil War is referred to as a mainstream, sell-out product, yet millions less read it than watched the Spider-Man movies, or almost any given TV show. Comics themselves aren't even really mainstream, but in every little group, there are going to be proponents of the poor, starving underdogs, as well as ones that blindly follow the creators with the most money and resources. Oh well, that's reflected everywhere, and is barely worth complaining about at this point.

Personally, I enjoyed Civil War. Civil War #1, especially, blew me away with its tension and drama. I left it feeling stunned and moved, especially when the American soldiers turned on Captain America. Which, to me, makes it a great comic book, and even a fine work of art (yeah, I'll be stupid and use that label).

As I've said, there's a lot of junk and a lot of creators that would be better off writing for computer magazines, but Marvel is still putting out some very good, very worthwhile work. Civil War was definitely one and definitely deserved to win something, even if it's only a nod.

Posted by PseudoSherlock on 2007-09-19 12:01:38
I'm over it!
CW1 was a good ish, but to be honest, I thought 2 was better. And I think the best comic to come out in a long time was Cap 25. I don't know if that one was considered for the award or not, but I think that was the most moving book I have seen. Cap freaking died!

Posted by bigdaddyhub2 on 2007-09-19 13:49:12
I should care why?
Now, understand, the Harvey Awards (like their estranged cousins the Eisner Awards) really don't signify anything tangible. Winning an award won't sell a measurable amount of additional copies of your book, nor will having one make you more likely to get an assignment if you're a creator. They're really just a nice pat on the back from your peers in the industry.

If that's the case, who cares what other people think.

Posted by quantumfield on 2007-09-19 14:05:33
Controversial Opinions
Personally, I liked Civil War. I thought it was very enjoyable for those exact reasons you said, Tom. I think CodeGuy made some good points with why people like or dislike comic books and it does seem that there's no shortage of those who will "hate" on a comic book (or anything else for that matter) and be unable to pin down the reason why. Either that or they just don't want to say.

It always seems that negative criticism of comic books by fans can seem far too over-analysed or, in many more cases, far too vague. I'm not saying it's like that for everyone who dislikes a comic book (quite the opposite, in fact) but there's always far more reason to dislike a comic book than "it sux lolz", which is often all that is heard.

For those who are the readers of the lesser-known comics, referred to by a few people here as "the underdogs", who knows why those who dislike the mainstream books feel that way? They may have a dislike for the frequent crossover events, simply prefer the less-mainstream comics or just be plain stubborn when it comes to anything Marvel or DC. Whatever the reasons, it seems that anybody willing to complain about a more mainstream title winning an award could be a bit more open-minded about the blockbusters being able to win just as many awards as the indies.

Posted by Carzy on 2007-09-19 16:23:34
britney spears example
Hey i think britney could help us with this one.
Britney spears is to music, more or less, what big super events od the big 2 are.
Pop culture to the top, you know what i mean.
Now, some of you may say: brutney music is crap, only stupid girls or ''sold outs'' hear to that music. ok, ok.
But if someone really knows about music, well he or she will know that, the music of britney spears is done by excellent professional studio musicians.
You maybe don't like it, maybe it's too pop, but you must recognize that the music is done by excellent musicians. i mean, if you know something about music you'll realize...
ok you don't like it, but don't say that this kind of music is easy to be done or executed.

Posted by Los Shapis on 2007-09-19 19:51:29
about the post above
...hey now i read it and i ralize that i did not write the allegory completely. what i mean was:
britney spears music ( or rihanna, beyonce, shakira whatever ) is to music what dc/marvel big super events are to comics.

Maybe you don't like it, maybe it's too pop and too ''for the masses'', but you can't say they represent the work of top professionals, and a good one.


Posted by Los Shapis on 2007-09-19 21:09:14
Pop Comics
I think the prime similarity between pop music and Marvel/DC comics is that they are professional products, put out by large companies, that appear complete and polished because quite a bit of production goes into them. Both types of companies (the big comic ones, and the record companies) have been in business for a while and they have a lot of money (comparitively speaking) to purchase the "best" creators and artists for every aspect of their products. Among those creators ARE people who truly love their jobs and want to create something from the heart, but oft times that feeling gets lost in the "perfect product" that comes out for the consumer. Then these companies use their experience and resources to steer these creators toward a more mainstream (generally acceptable) appreciation. And anyone who isn't completely blinded by our slick consumer society (you know, all two hunderd of those) get incensed that these people are putting out "junk" or "over-produced crap."

In reality, every industry needs the big boys to be the backbone of the medium. Otherwise, no one will listen to the little guys, and their products will never reach a wider audience than shouting distance. And again, there are people who care about their work within these giant companies...it's just that their voices sometimes get lost in the defeaning roar of the machinations of the money juggernaut.

Consequently, the big boys need the little whining, starving artists to lend credibility to their own, mass-produced works.

We're all part of the system...

Posted by PseudoSherlock on 2007-09-20 09:54:39
I understand the metaphor..but Britney??!!
I get the comparison of pop music and mainstream comics, but you would serve it better by using Beyonce or Christina Aguilera. The mainstream comics take the BEST writers and artists they can find, who are willing to tailor their skills to a corporate product. The music industry feels no such obligation. Yes, the artsits creating the pop music of a Britney Spears are the tops in their industry. But the face of the product, Britney herself, cannot sing. No one can say that Mark Millar cannot write, or Steve McNiven cannot draw. I'm not saying there aren't any writers or artsists employed by the big two that completely mystify me (Humberto Ramos anyone?), but overall, I feel comparing mainstream comics to BRITNEY is a bit unfair.

Posted by rayc2005 on 2007-09-20 11:05:05
I understand the remark ... but Humberto Ramo
Hey rac2005,

I am definitely not a fan of Britney and understand your remark completely, but did you have to pick Humberto Ramos?? He's really one of MY personal favorites. I used to be a big fan of Joe Madureira as well and he has a similar style.

And you may like his style or not, but technically the guy CAN draw. He just adds a bit of fun into it.

I think anybody that you would have mentioned would have 'offended' someone who's a fan of the artist.

Tastes are subjective. And apparently EVEN the appraisal of the possession of skills.

Posted by Zigy on 2007-09-21 06:42:01
About Britney, Humberto Ramos and more...
First of it all, sorry, i made a type-writing error again in my second post.
I wrote that (referring to big pop superstar music and marvel/dc macro events): ‘‘Maybe you don't like it, maybe it's too pop and too ''for the masses'', but you can't say they represent the work of top professionals, and a good one.’’
And i wanted to say that: ‘‘Maybe you don't like it, maybe it's too pop and too ''for the masses'', but you CAN’T say they DON’T represent the work of top professionals, and a good one.’’

I mean, both comic companies macroevents and big popstar music products are done by some of the best professionals in the bussiness. (Millar on crisis, Morrison on upcoming Final crisis etc. and at the same time the instrumental composers and studio musicians who record britneys, or madonnas, or beyonce’s songs are top of the top too, just for example hear the track ‘‘My prerrogative’’ by Britney, oh my god, just hear to the instruments if you don’t like how she sings this song, but the basslines, the drums, the other instruments are clearly interpreted by some of the best musicians of all the music industry).

Pseudo sherlock made a lot of interesting points regarding the pop culture, and the big companies produc ts (both comic companies and discographical).I think that for example britney’s music, or marvel or dc macroevents are not art per-se, but they are ‘‘comercial art’’, a kind of art anyway. If it’s a kind, it’s art finally, pop art, like it or not but it’s truth. No britney-hater can come here and say for example that the basslines or the drums or the guitars of her music are ‘‘crap’’, those are clearly some of the best musicians in the bussiness doing their best work.
And i am sure they do their work in a good mood, in a good atittude giving their best, i don’t think they just made it ‘’for the money’’ (maybe some, but not everyone). Why wouldn’t they enjoy their work? Of course those musicians have a lot of other projects some of them more personal, as do the comic writers and artist of the big comic macroevents. Using the example of Morrison. Is going to be Final Crisis or AS Superman the best work of Morrison? I doub’t it. His best work is going to remain his Doom Patrol, or Animal man or Invisibles or ‘‘Gothic’’, more personal works IMO. Does that mean that he will work in Final Crisis only for the money? I don’t think so, i know he will give all his professionalism and enthusiasm to do a great work.

My point is, i dont think comic macroevents represent the best of what’s done in the comic industry. I know that the best of the best of what’s been doing in the comic industry right now might be a series that probably is selling 30k or less monthly. Those kind of series. The same with music, for example britneys music or to put a more recent example Rihannas music don’t represent the best music that it’s done in the industry right now BUT, in both cases those products are done by some of the best professionals in the medium ( both comic writers and artist or music composers, studio musicians) and have, undoubtely, certain levels of quality, at least in the technical aspects. Now, those macro products are not the best of the best, but they aren’t either the crapiest of the crap ( as some haters or ‘‘intellectual-posers’’ like to say about any ‘‘big companies’ big products’’ without further thinking or analysis). As i said before, those products have certain levels of quality, if you don’t wanna recognize the ‘’art’’ quality levels, ok, but you have to recognize at least the technical quality levels.

Now on another point. Can those ‘‘big, for the masses, commercial etc.’’ kind of products can reach the level of ART?, can them win artistic prizes? i suposse that yeah, why not?? Why would’t Civil War#1 win a Harvey prize?
C’mon, prizes, all of them, are just a social convention. A prize is seven guys in an office deciding what’s good and what’s bad, as ridiculous as that. To win a prize or to never win a prize , doesn’t mean anything. Maybe it does make your work be more known, but that’s it. It doesn’t mean that something with a prize is better that something without one or vice-versa. I don’t care if it’s the harveys, or the eisners, cannes, or the oscars or the nobels, through history i have noticed that those institutions give their prizes to very good products (comics, movies, books, etc.) and creators, and in the same unexpected manner, they give it to mediocre products or creators alike. So c’mon i don’t buy that atittude of ‘‘this prize is only for quality art, only for non-commercial products, only for real art blah blah blah’’. So Civil War #1 congrats for your prize, you deserved it.

Finally, about the Humberto Ramos controversy, well he is a personal of mine favorite too. My personal favorite artist in mainstream comics are pretty much: Cheung, Romita Jr., Ramos, Maleev, Sook, Byrne and some other guys. But i accept that for other people, maybe they ‘’suck’’ or are mediocre artists. What can i do? It’s up to each one of us to decide what kind of art we enjoy. In the same line, i know a lot of guys consider Geoff Johnes as one of the best writers, while i consider him one if not the most mediocre and overrated writer in comic books history and i am glad he’s not working for Marvel, (and i hope he won’t in the future).

BUT, here’s the problem. Sometimes you can say that something is ‘’crap’’ because you understand what you are watching or reading and you don’t like it, but there’s people who say that something is ‘’crap’’ just because they don’t understand what they are watching or reading, or just because they are haters. I have heard a lot of guys in comic shops saying that Romita Jr. Art sucks. And i think, how can it be? It is really that those guys just ‘’doesn’t like it’’, or is it that those guys simple can’t difference between art and crap? in some cases, it’s because people don’t like what they see or read, but in another cases it’s just the opinion of idiots, simple as that.

Ok That’s all, i hope you Mr. Brevoort read this!!!

Guido Cuadros F.A.
Lima, Perú.



Posted by Los Shapis on 2007-09-21 21:53:32
Only *one* person called it a travesty?

Posted by deworde on 2007-09-24 06:36:41
On Art
...I consider comic books to be art. Even something like Civil War #1. I think it's art just as much as an indie book would be. Am I alone on this?

Posted by TheSeaKing on 2007-09-25 11:49:15
ME MY MO
LINNA LALI LOLA LILOLALAALAMMAEWRT

Posted by captain america on 2007-09-26 13:41:59
Single Issue? Story? Maybe
Not sure why Civil War #1 won the award. It set up the initial sparks for the conflict, but was far from the best issue in the series. If it had been the entire Civil War 1-7, I could see giving it an award, but for that one particular issue seems odd. As others said, Cap 25 seems like a better choice but might have been too 'new' for the voting at the time.

Not sure who would call it a travesty, but I can think of far worse comics than Civil War to give an award to and even then there aren't that many more deserving. Picking an award for that obsucre 'artsy' issue just to buck popular opinion is fun in theory, but not practical for the most part.

Kirk Warren
The Weekly Crisis
www.weeklycrisis.com

Posted by KirkWarren on 2007-09-26 23:11:25
To Zigy
Hi man. Sorry if I offended you by putting down Ramos' art, but I just don't really like his style. But even beyond that, his storytelling really leaves a lot to be desired. I picked up the most recent issue of X-MEN because it looked like one of the people pictured on the cover was Random, but he didn't actually end up appearing in the book. I also like some of the things I've read that by Mike Carey. But have avoided X-MEN up until now because of Ramos. Well, there are sequences included in that issue where I am really as a loss to identify the action that has just occured. It is just not clear from what Ramos draws.

Posted by rayc2005 on 2007-10-03 11:24:34